Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

When asked how, as a teacher, he would explain gender to students, Hayton refers to following the guidance of Head Teacher & school policy.

Given DH’s current school states on their website “to actively misgender a person is an act of hostility” that’s not reassuring in the slightest.

The C of E gives me the ick these days.....I wonder if it will ever be disestablished? There seemed always to be lots of of C of E men involved with The Beaumont Society.

Maybe that is why Janice is so supportive - given her obvious desire to vote Labour.

Yes, twitter does no-one any favours.

Watched the GB news segment. DH comes across as reasonable and personable.

Presenting AGP as 'sexually and romantically attracted to one's own body as a female' also sounds quite reasonable and everyday.

Hayton notes 'most' transwomen are driven by this urge ('the male sex drive, the most powerful force known to man', which I found amusing from a physics teacher).

So he is clear that it's all driven by what he describes as a very powerful sexual compulsion.

And he's managed to make that sound matter of fact.

Yes this is being presented as an orientation rather than a fetish. When you think about it that's the next logical step.

I always assumed Hayton had political ambitions- presumably Labour - & have been surprised it hasn't come it anything yet, maybe this is the push? Sanitising the fetish & boosting publicity - being seen as the reasonable middle ground 🙄

Yes, that is a bit puzzling.

I think part of Hayton’s agenda is to normalise transgender ideology in the CofE, which is always vulnerable to “be kind” thinking. Unfortunately it’s only the more extreme wing of the mostly fairly mild evangelicals within the CofE who stand up vocally for sex reality, from a conservative evangelical viewpoint. Within the CofE, Hayton is now quite well known.

Catching up on some telly a bit later than usual; Andrew Doyle had Hayton on Free Speech Nation this evening to discuss the book.

Four points of interest for me in light of discussion on this thread:

• Hayton refuses to comment on any input to the teaching union guidance that was pro self-ID re access to sex segregated spaces etc. Says it wouldn’t be possible for him, as a union member, to comment on union-written policies.
• Asked about men using women’s toilets Hayton goes on about preferring to use single cubicle toilets, but does not actually say outright he doesn’t use women’s loos.
• Hayton’s description of AGP is rather sanitised as ‘'being attracted to one’s own body’ and then something about male bodies being lamentably not what heterosexual men find attractive.
• When asked how, as a teacher, he would explain gender to students, Hayton refers to following the guidance of Head Teacher & school policy.

About to watch Helen Joyce being interviewed by Andrew about NUFC banning Linzi now.

Maybe the biggest problem is TwiX as a medium. I hugely admire Turner as a journalist, and my reservations about her approach to the interview with DH didn't change that.

But ye gods and goddesses, I wish she hadn't made those follow-up comments on TwiX! I'm sure the feedback from readers was unpleasant to read, but in turn, her own turn of phrase in her responses couldn't grate more on my nerves if she was outright trying.

Jesus, I don't know. On the one hand we have Debbie Hayton. A self-confessed AGP who places the rest of humanity in second place. On the other hand we have any number of serial killers who place the rest of humanity in second place.

Honestly, I can't weigh it up.

Maybe if you made your random remarks without quoting a post from someone, your intentions might be clearer.

taking on the most uncharitable interpretation of what they say.

Couldn't agree more.

Go well.

A persistent theme on this thread is that posters are taking a Dworkin stance (and that includes any who might dislike the word 'feminism').

Feminism is a political practice of fighting male supremacy on behalf of women as a class, including all the women you don't like, including all the women you don't want to be around, including all the women who use to be your best friends whom you don't want anything to do with any more. It doesn't matter who the individual women are. Dworkin

Yet the message from the enlightened ones is that they don't support all women. And there are times when men are to be preferred allies to (say) trans widows.

This discussion feels like a reprise of this one and I'm linking to a thoughtful post on sumptuary laws.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4640337-sarah-ditum-on-posie-parker?page=9&reply=120351217

I will say for Hayton, they were not the delete and report type; they did actually stay and talk. Without swearing or death threats, civilly. There were occasions where everyone on the thread was aware that Hayton was sharing screenshots of the MNetters' responses on other activist forums and laughing about them while engaging, which also made many at the time wonder about the difference between words and actions, and trustworthiness in general. Particularly since what was being laughed at was women trying to explain their problems with mixed sex spaces.

Just so I know, is your take an official preferred style? I'm eager to be schooled in the art of managing my expression and thought at all times but I wouldn't be comfortable adopting it.
Why would it be? I'm just a random poster, expressing my desire for a more constructive way of dealing with disagreements over issues within the GC sphere than deriding people as "head girls" or "poundshop whatsername", or taking on the most uncharitable interpretation of what they say. The infighting just takes energy away from all the other stuff that needs doing.

I'm startled to learn that I've never made a point about plurality, policy, and law.
And I'd like to say I was startled to learn that you're reading things into what I wrote that weren't actually there, but it's hardly the first time you've demonstrated that on this thread, is it?

I'm confused as to who is reporting posts for deletion, and why? They are being deleted incredibly quickly......as if someone is actively monitoring responses.

Debbie Hayton? He used to post on here occasionally.

And let's face it too, what makes for a grotty smelly kind of GC person as opposed to a good sort of GC person?

It's saying no too much to men.

In order for those, particularly Labour, people, who wish to hold reality based views without being smelly or dismissed, it is becoming necessary to monster other women.

By pushing us to one side and labelling us as 'extremist' they have helpfully supported the narrative that 'both sides are bad as each other' and that now they have opened the door, here come the nice grown ups to create sensible middle ground (where the fuck they have been for the past 8 years we won't talk about). I suspect some golden bridging idea is within it.

Its exceptionally ugly really. Particularly since 'middle ground' is a very soggy illusion as anyone who really digs into this discovers immediately, and really unless you plan to try and set it to 'some nice men with certificates who are quite open about wanting to use women in their sex life, with cool girls who are helpful about being used, and continuing to exclude a lot of marginalised and hidden groups of women from any provision at all to permit nice cool mixed sex spaces where women are respectfully pronouning men who are treating them with no respect at all.....'

you will not be able to slide a piece of paper between the good sort of the GC person and the grotty, smelly, awful sort of GC person.

What has really finished Labour for me is exactly this kind of snobbery and classism, and total abandonment of the real principles they once had. Or at least that I thought they had.

ultimately what they really want is to be allowed back in from exile. They don’t want to make a new life with bolshy women trying to pull down the establishment mistakes, what they really want is their old social/academic/journalistic circle to accept them back while allowing them their difference of opinion

I think there's a lot in this, Utopia. Also I'm thinking they want to align themselves with the Labour Party position, or at least demonstrate that they have no right-wing allegiances. I've been disappointed by the patronising, somewhat disingenuous attitudes on display this weekend.

I think it is pretty clear that Janice using the term ‘ultra GC’ can be described as derisory. Janice is framing women who are pushing back on this article and the tweets which have claims that show some dissonance in her position as extremists.

It is certainly not her saying every one has a voice that should be heard, it is her framing that she considers ‘those’ women’s views to be extreme and to be derided as such.

It does seem to be that some feminists really are prioritising protecting special male people’s feelings.

This.

They can be open about it.

And I can be open about my refusal of consent to play games with them. I have no interest in supporting a happy penis purely because I happen to be biologically female. Wtf should I?

I don't understand how Haytons book has recieved so much media coverage, the daily mail and now the times? Isn't he a bit of an obscure character? It's not as if many know of him, let alone were waiting for his autobiography. He's no Paris Lees thats for sure.

Whereas I feel it is an act of unacceptable and oppressive male dominance.

I mean, frankly: No.

I think shes is attempt to sell AGP as being of no harm if the AGP man knows that he's AGP.

Yes, some people are now taking this position.

It's okay for a fetishist to perform his fetish if he tells you about it and he's open about it.

I guess my post was deleted for talking about how Hayton, a self confessed fetishist, is open about being a fetishist, and that's what his books about, but I'm not allowed to say that?

'Debbie' is allowed to use male pronouns for himself, but I'm not.

'Debbie' is allowed to talk about his fetish, but I'm not.

Curious.