Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

Here’s a brief moment of levity from the lovely mr menno

https://twitter.com/MrMennoTweets/status/1754559729794273433/

That.

It is not clever clever feministing.

It's shafting women for good girl cookies from men.

And it remains an issue of consent.

It is all very well those women consenting. But they cannot consent on behalf of other women.

Some women are going to be excluded from any woman's space that those women make mixed sex, regardless of their 'lovely trans friend'. This is not ok. This is spitting on the women who are the least privileged, in order to pander to men.

I am not ok with any women being disenfranchised and excluded from society so that men can use women's spaces if they want to. Even the women who aren't my friends and aren't in my social group. Even the women I don't like. Zero tolerance on this. Women cannot be sacrificed to men. End of.

Re-reading this blogpost, which discusses why some high status women want to allow TIMs into 'sisterhood', made me think of how the discussion has been going on Twitter this weekend and with Turner, Freeman, Stock et al generally:

'There is always danger in sacralising any given class of people, but these trans allies do not see the danger or do not care. They have a mission and a purpose. They believe that women centring our needs in a world that hurts and uses us, asserting our boundaries and the relevance of being born and raised a girl in a sexist world are simply motivated by hate. They don’t understand that the hate they perceive is the one they have for themselves. I do not blame them. As a woman, as a former girl, I know this self-hatred far too well…

Women know this hate so well that it has inserted itself in the fabric of our being. Many of us have internalised it and with it they have internalised the male system of values whereby men are the only true humans – and as true human beings, the idea that they could possibly be treated with the same condescension and disrespect as women, even when they claim to be us, is simply unacceptable.'

<a class="break-all" href="//web.archive.org/web/20220805065934/virginiasroom.co.uk/2022/01/falling-from-humanity/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20220805065934/virginiasroom.co.uk/2022/01/falling-from-humanity/

It has been very evident for quite some times she is wanting, very much, to vote Labour.
I've seen Janice state a couple of times that she's a Labour Party member.

Well. Bleurgh.

After Helen Joyce's "fuck off" to women who object to others voluntarily using wrong-sex pronouns, I lost a lot of respect for her. Same now for Janice Turner after the article and her tweets. If this was the only article of hers that I'd read, I'd think she was a useful idiot.

Your enemy's enemy is your friend - but not in this case. My enemy's enemy is also my enemy, just for different reasons.

ArabellaScott
Describing women who stay in marriages/relationships with AGP men as feisty rather than passive victims reminds me of the manipulation used to persuade girls/women into doing things they are not comfortable with during sex, or into more and more extreme pornography. "Most girls don't have the guts." "I thought you could handle it." "Aren't you woman enough." Etc, etc.

TinselAngel
This sort of article must be both infuriating and abusive for you and women like you. My deepest sympathy goes out to you as does my admiration for your determination and courage. Have a hug.

You clearly don't read her columns iin the Times. I do. It has been very evident for quite some times she is wanting, very much, to vote Labour.

The Times as a whole has been banging the drum for Labour for a long time; besides it has a variety of writers and contributors - like any good publication should, and does.

That aside, can you explain why she is so keen to use pronouns when they are neither demanded nor required?

If they'd befriended Tinsel or other transwidows, or someone like Lynne Pinches, or developed feelings of warmth towards the women removed from sporting competitions, I wonder if the present landscape might be different?

Empathy bias is strong and can skew perspectives and decisions.

Fowler, Z., Law, K. F., & Gaesser, B. (2021). Against Empathy Bias: The Moral Value of Equitable Empathy. Psychological Science, 32(5), 766-779. https://doi.org/10.1177/0956797620979965

It's why Nolan principles of public life mandate consideration for others who are not in the room. Yogyakarta Principles were formed without consideration of those who were not invited nor considered.

I don't know if JT has been subtly clever or totally suckered in this instance. But if you'd asked me before DH went on the circuit to sell his books, I'd have said I couldn't be much more GC than I already was. I'd also have said that I personally wouldn't bat an eyelid about either of the transwomen of my acquaintance peeing in the next cubicle in a mixed sex toilet, just as I'd be happy to have any of the ordinary blokes I know peeing in the next cubicle of a mixed sex toilet. But with the fetishistic aspect of adult male transition being brought to the fore, even in a sanitised version, I'm now thinking, "No, I don't want YOU to overhear me tinkling in the loo. In fact, I don't want you in my airspace at all now that I can't escape the knowledge that I'm unintentionally feeding your fetish." If the intention was to normalise AGP, it's had the opposite effect on me. It's pushed me to a new peak.

No, you’re correct, it’s not.

I feel Hayton is being disingenuous here by stating he can’t discuss the teaching Union policy; his case study and input was involved in creating that policy. I presume the Head Teacher at his school consulted him too when the change in presentation started at work. So Hayton benefits from both these self-ID based policies being strictly in favour of pronouns, presentation, and using women’s sex-segregated spaces, despite saying him now saying he no longer agrees with them. Instead of writing a memoir, why not put all that effort into a campaign to change these policies?🤔🤷‍♀️

I'm quite surprised that Janice let herself be drawn into those Tweets. I normally find her far more measured than that and, as other posters have said, she didn't have to say anything at all never mind lash out in the way she did.

My guess is that she (and probably other GC journalists) must have known Debbie Hayton for quite a long time and that what started off as a working relationship has become a friendship, hence the defensiveness and testiness. That's total speculation but something, it seems to me, has touched a nerve.

Oh and Debbie Hayton is very clever.

Yet, her tweets framing women who reject using pronouns and have articulated excellent reasons for that rejecting of using pronouns have led me, and many others it seems, to believe otherwise. Calling women 'ultra GC' for rejecting pronouns is not respectful, in my opinion.

Gender dysphoria is a separate chapter.

'In this chapter, there is one overarching diagnosis of gender dysphoria, with separate developmentally appropriate criteria sets for children and for adolescents and adults. The area of sex and gender is highly controversial and has led to a proliferation of terms whose meanings vary over time and within and between disciplines. An additional source of confusion is that in English “sex” connotes both male/female and sexuality. This chapter employs constructs and terms as they are widely used by clinicians from various disciplines with specialization in treating gender dysphoria(Bouman et al. 2017; Hembree et al. 2017). In this chapter, sex and sexual refer to the biological indicators of male and female (understood in the context of reproductive capacity), such as in sex chromosomes, gonads, sex hormones, and nonambiguous internal and external genitalia. Disorders of sex development or differences of sex development (DSDs) included the historical terms hermaphroditism and pseudohermaphroditism. DSDs include somatic intersex conditions such as congenital development of ambiguous genitalia (e.g., clitoromegaly, micropenis), congenital disjunction of internal and external sex anatomy (e.g., complete androgen insensitivity syndrome), incomplete development of sex anatomy (e.g., gonadal agenesis), sex chromosome anomalies (e.g., Turner syndrome; Klinefelter syndrome), or disorders of gonadal development (e.g., ovotestes)(Lee et al. 2016).'

https://dsm.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.books.9780890425787.x14_Gender_Dysophoria

Note the involvement of Bouman.

That's Walter Pierre Bouman. Of the NHS, and of WPATH. He is past president of WPATH and was involved in the Standards of Care 8 with the Eunuch chapter.

https://www.wpath.org/soc8/chapters

@Elspyth I can't remember where I've seen it but i believe she's been championing Labour a fair bit

I would have supported the idea it was a subtle hatchet job till I saw her tweets

A subtle hatchet job would have been keeping schtum and letting the discussion and criticism spread like wildfire

Sorry, Tinsel. This must all be really hard. I hope you're okay.

It seems DSM 5 has been updated, but I can't access it.

https://dsm.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.books.9780890425787.x19_Paraphilic_Disorders

This is the description of the chapter that contains AGP:

'Paraphilic disorders included in this manual are voyeuristic disorder (spying on others in private activities), exhibitionistic disorder (exposing the genitals), frotteuristic disorder (touching or rubbing against a nonconsenting person), sexual masochism disorder (undergoing humiliation, bondage, or suffering), sexual sadism disorder (inflicting humiliation, bondage, or suffering), pedophilic disorder (sexual focus on children), fetishistic disorder (using nonliving objects or having a highly specific focus on nongenital body parts), and transvestic disorder (engaging in sexually arousing cross-dressing). These disorders have traditionally been selected for specific listing and assignment of explicit diagnostic criteria in DSM for two main reasons: they are relatively common, in relation to other paraphilic disorders, and some of them entail actions for their satisfaction that, because of their noxiousness or potential harm to others, are classed as criminal offenses. The eight listed disorders do not exhaust the list of possible paraphilic disorders. Many dozens of distinct paraphilias have been identified and named, and almost any of them could, by virtue of its negative consequences for the individual or for others, rise to the level of a paraphilic disorder.'

That's what I think too. By using preferred pronouns and being respectful, there can be no accusations of transphobia and the fetish clearly shows for what it is

Am I missing something? What's an article by JT in the Times got to do with Labour? I thought the Times was centre Right and Janice was well known for being GC?

He's not being hoist on his own petard. He's being enabled to normalise his fetish and continue to coercively control his wife.

Sorry I was too depressed by the whole thing to read the middle of the thread.

It would appear that what she says on Twitter doesn't really back that up.

Right. And now you know, at the time of writing that, DH knew he had AGP, and since then has admitted that he would have given up his wife and his entire family in order to satisfy it.

Stephanie says:

"That this was, well first of all, it was that she wasn't going to transition even though she really should do, and then it became actually she had to transition, and that she was going to transition whether I agreed with it or not, whether I wanted it or not. And that if necessary that she would walk away, leave us all, as long as she could transition."

I posted it upthread, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, used as reference for mental health :

'Diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders'

https://archive.org/details/diagnosticstatis0005unse/page/702/mode/2up

* The section in the DSM does talk about female partners of AGP men*
Sorry what's the DSM?

I think this was a subtle hatchett job by JT.

Letting DH hoist himself on his own petard so to speak.

Just put the facts and his quotes out there and let readers draw their own conclusions.

I think that would be better than an editorial slating of him, or just ignoring him.