Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

@BettyFilous
It think it was the incident documented in the blog that Old Crone posted (thanks, Old Crone) but my memory of the video clip was of HJ saying "just fuck off".
There was a thread about it on Mumsnet but I can't find it.

Well that's not bad as I thought it would be. And I get it. You could just get bogged down in a whole he! No she! No he! For fricken hours. And any chance of communication goes down the swanny.

But that's not what Janice Turner did. Janice Turner wasn't having a conversation. And she already had permission to use the correct pronouns for Debbie Hayton. And she then accused women who object of being extreme.

Different kettle of fish altogether.

And I agree, if she hadn't doubled down on Twitter, it would've been a different story.

Annoying, but she wouldn't have been planting her flag anywhere.

This is the Helen Joyce video I've seen. https://twitter.com/andrewdoyle_com/status/1754524663730844031

Is it the incident described here?

https://wildwomanwritingclub.wordpress.com/2023/06/12/on-pronouns-live-not-by-lies/

“I absolutely bloody fcking hate the fcking pronoun police. All of them! [laughter and applause] All those women who pop up and say, “HE!”, when somebody says “she” of a transwoman. Would you F*CK off? And the other way round obviously as well.”

Thanks Pixie. That makes more srnse.

BettyFilous · Today 21:00

After Helen Joyce's "fuck off" to women who object to others voluntarily using wrong-sex pronouns, I lost a lot of respect for her.

I’m not on Twitter. Did HJ tweet this?

If it's the video I've seen Helen Joyce said she hates the 'pronoun police' whatever side they're on, and thinks people shouldn't be 'corrected' but allowed free speech.

Not read all the posts in this thread but as others will have said this feels like a continuation of JT's previous couple of articles which seek to separate good, reasonable Labour voting women from those bad, extremist women who might be tempted to vote Tory on this issue.

With an election on the horizon and the prospect of a new Labour government there's a lot of realignments and boundaries being rejigged all over the place at the minute.

It's going to be painful but a number of women we think of as being on 'our' side will fall back and fall in line with a Starmer led vision of 'reasonableness' in handing over rights and definitions belonging to women.

tbh, left and right feels anachronistic rather than useful in some areas.

I recognise this:

This cartoon I made offers a rough outline of my recent political "journey" that I've been on while standing completely still.

https://twitter.com/SwipeWright/status/1462114108535312388?lang=en

After Helen Joyce's "fuck off" to women who object to others voluntarily using wrong-sex pronouns, I lost a lot of respect for her.

I’m not on Twitter. Did HJ tweet this?

Read everything! Read The Sun, read Reuters, read the BBC, Al Jazeera, the Mirror, local papers, and yes, even the Guardian, although it makes me roll my eyes. I even read Pink News.

I agree about the importance of reading a plurality of new sources although there are lots on this board who won’t read the guardian because of how they’ve treated women so I sympathise with those that feel inclined to give more Tory-leaning papers a serve!

No, that is not what I'm saying, though plenty of Labour/Left leaning people ( including many here), and even party members quite clearly read it.

You need to broaden your news horizons I'd suggest. Some of the most interesting writers now write for the Times, the Telegraph and other traditional 'right leaning' publications. You must have been aware - perhaps not - that a good few were expelled from The Guardian for wrong think.

'Wrong think' is the outcome of narrow tribal affinities and formulating your views based on second hand opinion; on stereotypes, and on ignorance.

No I don't read the times, i get most of my news on here or BBC. All the Times readers I know are Tories, I thought it was a paper for centre right voters which is why I was surprised you said it was Labour.
I tend to think Guardian is left, Mirror is left, Independent centre left, Times centre right, Sun centre right, Telegraph, Express and Daily Mail right.

May have to revisit if we are now saying the Times is for Labour voters.

"Blowing your mind"! Rather hyperbolic I'd say.

I gave up my Guardian subscription around 2017 - and started reading the Times because it was one of the very few mainstream publications to be airing content that was critical of Gender ideology and Self ID. Janice Turner played a central role in that. Many of us here wanted to encourage further coverage and so took out subscriptions.

i've been reading both the paper and the digital copies daily since then. In all of that time the paper's editorial line has been relenetless in its negativity towards the Tory party; towards Boris Johnson, and now towards the current administration. As even an ex Labour party member it began to annoy me - it seemed so relentless. The cartoons have been vicious.

But yes, its reputation is of being centre right, but not always rigidly so.

I'm really not sure what your point is - if you have one?

You responded to my post about Janice Turner wanting to vote Labour with a kind of forced incredulity. Do you read The Times, yourself - and of so have you been reading Janice Turner's columns ( not just the GC ones, but the others too)?

I managed to miss that somehow, thanks for the clarification 👍

I'd have thought that making an active decision to leave a relationship, is the reverse of being "passive" but what do I know?

I'm not sure how you 'passively' leave and 'victim'ishly decline to put up with someone's abuse of you.

@Snowypeaks ArabellaScott
Describing women who stay in marriages/relationships with AGP men as feisty rather than passive victims reminds me of the manipulation used to persuade girls/women into doing things they are not comfortable with during sex, or into more and more extreme pornography. "Most girls don't have the guts." "I thought you could handle it." "Aren't you woman enough." Etc, etc.

I just wanted to say thank you for this post. Something has really been niggling the back of my brain about the victims of this, you are correct. It is manipulative, controlling abusive and just plain wrong anyone that cannot see this needs to stop and really rethink their priorities.

Hehehehe. Perfect! If only he had a breast pump in the background for a nice cross reference.

It's on point

Menno has just done a marigolds skit

x.com/mrmennotweets/status/1754559729794273433?s=46&t=A2fpFNgDRyXF2d6ye97wEA

The Times is a Tory paper and JT is GC. This is blowing my mind.

What are the suitable GC news sources then?

Describing women who stay in marriages/relationships with AGP men as feisty rather than passive victims reminds me of the manipulation used to persuade girls/women into doing things they are not comfortable with during sex, or into more and more extreme pornography. "Most girls don't have the guts." "I thought you could handle it." "Aren't you woman enough." Etc, etc.

100% that is exactly correct.

Menno is quoting my friend Jenny.

Thanks for the link 😂

Menno really gets the issue.

'While celebrated AGPs go by “as many names and faces as it takes to get what they want… women must choose whether to have a name and a face at all”
https://x.com/MrMennoTweets/status/1754436415209766961?s=20

and

'These men give our sex class such a bad name. It should be men calling them out if anything and pulling them back in our lane. He can bring his marigolds 🤷‍♂️

As for his ‘Journey Back To Reality’ - Hayton is still living the Debbie Fantasy. He’s not returned from it at all, just consolidated it in a way that makes it easy for others to swallow. And they do.'
https://x.com/MrMennoTweets/status/1754460971555303733?s=20