Janice Turner interview with Debbie Hayton in the Times

I don't think that's a surprise, nearly all the names on that list are effectively "professional" commentators and have an implied contract that modifies how they speak.

Your average non academic/clinician/therapist/charity worker et al isn't bound by the same speech conventions and frequently lacks an understanding of the subtleties that imposes. Or doesn't actually care.

I'm a bit on no side or all sides and find most of that list quite willing to deploy uncompromising criticism too so I'm a bit meh about the need for yet another bloody label from the label professionals and their money making labeling schemes on all sides really.

Some more info relevant to the discussion on the thread: Stella O’Malley has tweeted a list of what looks to be people she believes have been bullied by the people Janice Turner has recently termed GC Ultras.

'Jane Claire Jones, Graham Linehan, Fionne Orlander, Debbie Hayton, Miranda Yardley, Kristina Harrison, Buck Angel, Claire Graham, James Esses, Sarah Phillimore, Helen Pluckrose, Benjamin Boyce, Mike Bailey, James Cantor, Ken Zucker, Ray Blanchard, Billboard Chris, Genspect, LGB Alliance, Jenny Watson, Kathleen Stock, Julie Bindel, Women's Place UK, Judith Green, Labour Women's Declaration, Fair Play for Women, Aaron Tyrrell, Aaron Kimberly, GD Alliance, Corinna Cohn...'

https://x.com/stellaomalley3/status/1754984736181629041

Sorry, nrtt but (staying far too late) I noticed this in the Times

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/im-a-trans-womans-wife-my-life-with-debbie-hayton-wfqp5b72x

https://archive.ph/k9VqS

It's quite a slight piece but, as well as being lovely, she seems empathetic and intelligent.

That’s an excellent point, Frood - women have managed to move culture to the point where, publicly at least, a lot of men know not to make inappropriate comments about teenage girls. It shouldn’t be tolerated when it comes to discussing teenage boys either.

The other reason why I don't think it's women on here, at least, is that we write quite long and involved posts about why we believe what we do. We back it up with, hopefully, rational arguments and evidence.

it's kind of the whole point of this board. That you have enough time and space to put your point across properly.

Highly unlikely that you're going to turn around and basically say fuck off you <insert slur here> when you've got reams and reams of perfectly wonderful argument to relay instead.

To a journalist.

With his own slot on the telly.

I think being shocked is the appropriate response for tonight.

I don't disagree with your post, but I'm not sure what the last paragraph means?

I know men and women view sex completely differently, and gay men differently, again. They're bound to, not having any attraction to women.

There's often going to be a mismatch of understanding, even when the two groups, or all three groups are generally agreed on the same goal. And sometimes, it will be little uneasy. Because I genuinely believe women have more insight into the way men think, than men do into the way women think.

My main point, though, is that I don't think the women who are fighting this, whether it's those who believe in pronouns, or those who don't, would resort to homophobic slurs.

i'm not on Twitter, and I was a bit shocked to hear that Andrew Doyle had deleted his account. I've seen him handle everything with massive doses of humour and a studied nonchalance.

but I'd be really shocked if it had anything to do with certainly the women on here, and probably gender critical feminists in general.

There are aspects of male sexuality which are very different from female sexuality. Many men struggle with it and resent it, because there aren’t many legitimate means to express it in polite society - like Hayton’s beachball.

Many men will feel a lot of empathy with one of their brothers talking about how trying to restrain their sexual urges and impulses feels like trying to hold a beach ball underwater, and very few women will empathise at all.

Most women are either foolishly oblivious to this aspect of male sexuality and wrongly assume innocent intent (a bit like JT obliviously playing into DH’s erotic fantasy life, using his erotic words while he is blatantly saying the quiet bit out loud- constant crossdressing and extreme surgery is one of the weird places the male sex drive can end up), or are hyper vigilant about it, because they have lived experience of the unpleasant end of it.

Having said that, there are a lot of men whose empathy with the beach ball analogy, leads them to think “I know what your game is sonny Jim” when they see a brother in a dress being surrounded by fawning women. Particularly straight men. Also, through having an intimate knowledge of women, they know the damage that a male sexuality can do to women when it isn’t properly managed and comes out warped and twisted. They know exactly why feminist women aren’t cheerleading erections. But, come to think about it, Mr Menno’s testimony about his experience of sexual violence means he can empathise a bit more with women too.

However, in my experience, gay men have tended to have more of a blind spot to the negative impact that male sexuality can have on women, than straight men and can be a bit more defensive, thinking women are just hating on men when we complain about behaviours that make us feel uncomfortable and threatened. Perhaps not fancying women makes it seem more like DH just innocently enjoys costumes and dressing up, or wants a holiday from the pressures of masculinity, because the idea of a man getting turned on by women’s words and accoutrements doesn’t make sense if you don’t get turned on by women yourself.

And although there are many aspects to male sexuality @Datun, I don’t think you can completely extract ‘rapeyness’ from it as though the non-consensual behaviour comes from somewhere else completely, as though the men who engage in it are monsters rather than ordinary men.

Not a Twixter person (just as well as I'd constantly be tempted by Twix) but I trust that after some time away, AD feels it's appropriate to return.

I have to confess that I'd sooner sit on a narrow wooden seat and listen to the entire Ring Cycle than sit through a 4hr struggle session if that's an accurate description.

To honest I think it's perfectly understandable if Andrew Doyle is in a strop after what he's been through this evening. I feel like I need a shower after reading some of those screenshots.

As for what we should say, well I think, 'so sorry that happened to you Andrew and hope you're ok' would do as a start.

Both Simpson & Kavanagh felt women expressing concern about this bloke’s past tweets about teenage 'boys' he thought were sexy (when he was in his 20s) were homophobic and didn’t take gay male culture into account.

Yeah, no. Dodgy behaviour and inappropriacy - I won't add any more labels - is NOT a part of the culture of homosexuality thanks. Ffs we spent decades trying to teach the general public we were as trustworthy and normal as straight people, and that gay didn't mean dodgy. If straight adult men were making dodgy comments about young girls society doesn't go aww bless it's part of the straight male culture (or at least they bloody shouldn't do.)

This is the issue: inappropriate behaviour, boundary issues and using others, less powerful others based on your power over them, and without care for consent is NOT a natural part of someone's sexuality. The two need to be kept firmly apart. However inconvenient this may be for some.

Accusing feminists of homophobia is going to get a whole lot worse when surrogacy becomes more of an issue.

We have to remember, there are lots of people who are on the GC side, but with different priorities and motivations.

If AD and BB want to get into a strop with all women because they percieve some women have offended them, then we need to let them get on with it. What do they want us to say?

I listen to The Queens Speech podcast (Clive Simpson & Dennis Kavanagh) and I really enjoy it. But from time to time both men interpret feminist behaviour with regards to gay male sexuality as homophobic - a recent episode briefly discussed women’s reactions to the man who created the Pride Pillar in London Bridge Station. Both Simpson & Kavanagh felt women expressing concern about this bloke’s past tweets about teenage 'boys' he thought were sexy (when he was in his 20s) were homophobic and didn’t take gay male culture into account. I seem to remember Simpson being angry with feminist objections to drag queens too.

There’s a difference in attitudes between women and men, it would be silly to think otherwise, when it comes to male sexuality but I don’t think any of the GC feminists I’m aware of hate gay men or their sexuality.

Twixterfuckle.

well now I've seen reactions to the tweets and descriptions of them, but I haven't seen any of the tweets.

Still highly doubt it was anyone who I would recognise.

a good old-fashioned Twitter clusterfuck.

Yep. A Twixterfuck.

It's an interesting question though. There are lots of men with foot fetishism out there perving on women in heels without their consent, for example.

Hmm. Rapey sexuality is not the same thing as male sexuality.

Also, it is far more annoying to me when men give women’s words to their brothers than when self-defeating women give them. It’s a brotherly pat on the back. Bros before hos dude yeah? The male entitlement and misogyny of it.

I came across a tweet from Graham Linehan claiming this whole kerfuffle was the fault of a Twitter account called Grace O’Malley. I feel it’s only fair to add that Glinner has beef with her (he dislikes her intensely and she’s not keen on him either) but no-one else I can read on Twitter has confirmed his supposition on the matter, in fact they’re saying he’s incorrect. So I’m really not sure who to believe - it’s a good old-fashioned Twitter clusterfuck.

There’s an element of ‘bros before hos’ to that.

Of course feminists critique male sexuality and the hoards of women who have experienced male sexual violence, which pushed them to become feminists, hate male sexuality, and those that don’t hate it sometimes want a damn break from it - the male gaze, pornified culture, casual sexual bullying of women and so on.

So many men just don’t get it do they? They really want women to celebrate their dicks and their associated impulses along with them.

I don't recognise the rhetoric at all. I have to wonder about

• struggle session
• GC feminists
• the reported reference to "the gays"

Who on earth passed on that report and how reliable is the source? I'd be surprised at Doyle being deceived but I've no idea how difficult that is for people to validate.

Wow, I managed to miss that long tweet from him. I really don’t know what to think in response to his stating some feminists might hate male sexuality. Bit stumped by that 🤔

Sorry, couldn't edit my post to include the BB screenshot from Andrew Doyle.

https://x.com/billybragg/status/1754958332631154920?s=20