Why is Mumsnet so GC?

If transwomen had always stuck to male spaces, we probably wouldn't 3/4 the amount of threads we do, but we'd have all the rest about schools and children.

Only females can be mums.

Females are subjected to male violence and abuse at an enormous scale.

Male offending patterns do not change with transition.

In the last decade, the numbers of children claiming to be trans has skyrocketed.

Therefore, mumsnet is GC.

The climate of fear gradually faded, and bigotry retreated until we reached an inflection point where you could generally assume that most people you met online wouldn't despise you by default for being trans - or at least, wouldn't say it to you directly.

Very few people "despise you by default for being trans".

What we despise, and hold in utter contempt, is the individuals who claim trans status should allow them the right to women's spaces - changing rooms, toilets, hospital wards, prisons etc, women's sports, women's prizes / academic grants/ jobs* etc.

THAT'S what we despise and, with reason, fear. Why - because it leaves women very vulnerable to men who are violent and misogynistic, and it means that women (in sport in particular) no longer have a chance to set records and excel among their peers. It means that the rights to equality that women fought and died for have been snatched out of our hands by entitled men. THAT'S what we despise.

Break every gender stereotype you can think of - that's fine. In fact it's more than fine - it's desirable - but don't pretend that you have magically changed sex, no matter how much surgery, hormones, lipstick and twirly skirts you have. You haven't changed SEX and never will.

Let women have what is rightfully theirs, and you stay with the rest of theme. Campaign for third spaces if you feel they re necessary - but keep out of ours. And stop messing with children. Children aren't capable of making this choice - there is no such thing as a "trans child". There are children who explore the world around them, indulge in make believe, dress up, explore their sexuality - and yes, find puberty awful. I'll let you into secret - ALMOST EVERYONE finds puberty awful because the body and brain are going through so many changes that it knocks us sideways, upside-down, back-to-front and inside out.

When people get through this, the vast majority are content with their sex (not necessarily their looks - but with their sex). Most are straight, some are gay, a few are bi- and tiny, tiny minority are trans. If we've let them be themselves and accepted them for what and who they are, they will get through life OK.

Don't claim that you are despised because you are trans, because you aren't. Honestly - you aren't important enough to most of us to care what you are - we don't know you and aren't bothered about you.

It is only when your actions and demands threaten women and children that we step up and say "This far and no further!"

*Eg as managers of rape crisis centres.

Yes - and worth reminding newer members that 'Let Toys be Toys' is the epitome of being 'gender critical'. We were using this term to mean 'being against gender stereotypes' before many people began to be concerned about transgender issues and their impact on women's rights and children's well-being.

I think "Why Mumsnet is so GC" is because the gender-critical viewpoint is allowed here, when it's forbidden in many other places, even those claiming to be feminist. Maybe people are coming here to discuss it. But maybe it's an opinion that a large number of people have, but they don't dare to mention it in public.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/2497536-to-think-if-you-have-a-penis-you-do-not-belong-in-a-womans-prison?page=1

Link to a 2015 thread raising concerns about men in women’s prisons - back when no political party cared about this issue.

1. Has always been political - see also ‘let toys be toys’.
2. Predominately used by people who can’t ignore the material consequences of being female.

This bit in particular stood out to me -

to a sense of entitlement that is oblivious to the continued lived reality of so many other individuals and demographics

Butterfly talks about the improved online experience for trans people without the slightest hint of understanding or consciousness of how virulently anti woman most online spaces are and continue to be for women with the exception of a handful of heavily moderated, constantly under attack online spaces (it's only recently that the almost constant DDOS attacks have stopped on this site) like this one. Which apparently can't possibly be allowed to stand.

Safe space, anonymous!

@ButterflyHatched

Growing up in 90's online culture

What is this 90's online culture of which you speak? We got a PC in 1998. It connected to the Internet over a 28K dial-up line. There wasn't any culture.

The echo chamber thing is partly why I keep my Twitter account as open as I can make it - I don't follow individuals who are highly associated with this issue, though I search out specific accounts. I don't ever want to reach a point where I don't hear what people who disagree with me are saying.

As someone who was born and bred in Stratford, I can’t say I was aware of there being a huge trans population. Yes obviously like most areas, there were a few local TW who just quietly got on with their lives without the drama and demands the TRA’s are now creating.

It’s 20 years since I moved out to Essex suburbia and Newham is a very different place these days. And yes knife crime and gang culture is a massive problem sadly.

To put it another way - why do other spaces deny reality. TRAs are misogynistic and homophobic bullies and some rich people, mainly men, have spent a lot of money trying to silence opposition.

I'm always mindful of a useful distinction between epistemic bubbles and echo chambers. The corollary is that perspectives have to be falsifiable and that, plus a realistic interpretation of various studies, data, social phenomena is what is so often lacking from those who would wish to present themselves as someone with an alternate view.

"An ‘epistemic bubble’ is an informational network from which relevant voices have been excluded by omission. That omission might be purposeful: we might be selectively avoiding contact with contrary views because, say, they make us uncomfortable. As social scientists tell us, we like to engage in selective exposure, seeking out information that confirms our own worldview. But that omission can also be entirely inadvertent. Even if we’re not actively trying to avoid disagreement, our Facebook friends tend to share our views and interests. When we take networks built for social reasons and start using them as our information feeds, we tend to miss out on contrary views and run into exaggerated degrees of agreement.

An ‘echo chamber’ is a social structure from which other relevant voices have been actively discredited. Where an epistemic bubble merely omits contrary views, an echo chamber brings its members to actively distrust outsiders.

A very thoughtful essay:

Apparently according to ONS, Newham has the highest amount of trans and non binary people...i think not. Knife crime, yes.

And yet, they won't issue an official revision to the census data.

I'm truly sorry about the knife crime. The pall of unease that that horror drops on a community is hard to understand. The fear for young people going out on the most straightforward of daily activities and the general hypervigilance it creates, it's wretched.

I don't know 1 person, as far as I am aware, who believes that humans can change sex. Everyone in my family, including my wider family, and all my friends think men can dress and have operations etc, but will of course never really be 'women'. I include my mum, in her 80s, and my neices and nephews, in their teens and twenties. Any school mums I have become friends with, and who I have mentioned this topic, all say the same thing 'it's bloody ridiculous isn't it'. You won't see the new flag in many places where I live. I live in East London. Apparently according to ONS, Newham has the highest amount of trans and non binary people...i think not. Knife crime, yes.

Despite telling us we’re all being such appalling intolerable bigots and MN being such a place of fear & literal violence, BH seems unable to stay away even though there Is absolutely no compulsion for them to be here

I don’t see why we can’t have a majority female space online. So much of the internet is overrun by males who express misogyny

I don’t want to use those platforms obviously

Accusations again of fear and bigotry. It's scaremongering nonsense. Women are not fearful or bigots. We have valid topics to discuss and will do so, despite what some occasion Lepidopteran visitors would prefer.

BH's solipsistic posts are always remarkably grounding as

• an exemplar of the personal perspective being extrapolated to the wider political
• to a sense of entitlement that is oblivious to the continued lived reality of so many other individuals and demographics.

The current Doyle and parallel Hayton stramash is indicative of the absence rather than dominance of women's voices.

It is concerning but there are plenty of posters on here who would like to see mn stop it too

Sadly not everyone is pro women

Growing up in 90's online culture, where every space was virulently trans-hostile by default, has given me quite a strong sense of perspective whenever someone makes a claim like this.

We had those debates. Over and over and over and over again. We allowed the discussion to be reset back to base principles and run through again and again because we wanted people to have a chance to walk themselves onto the target.

It seemed impossible; it looked completely hopeless. Many of us assumed that this would be the way of things forever. Gradually, however, the landscape shifted. People started becoming more reasonable. They actually met trans people. They actually talked to us. The climate of fear gradually faded, and bigotry retreated until we reached an inflection point where you could generally assume that most people you met online wouldn't despise you by default for being trans - or at least, wouldn't say it to you directly.

I'm so sorry that you view the fading embers of the World That Was with fear, as if something great was lost.

Lipstick Alley is not as resolutely GC, but again a place dominated by women, where women will say what they think.

Perhaps the issue is of men dominating the conversation else. Though in fairness Quora allows some very good GC posts.

I've never come across another space, online or otherwise, where being GC is the norm

indeed. You certainly can't say that male bodied people shouldn't be in female sports categories in the parkrun discussion group for example.

The key reason is that we are a bit older (ie over 30, and a lot of us are in our 40s and 50s) and therefore see the Emperor's New Clothes.

Although I don't like the term "gender critical". I am critical of gender stereotyping, though - ie you must be a woman if you want to wear a dress and heels.