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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why is Mumsnet so GC?

834 replies

ireallycantthinkofaname · 03/02/2024 00:18

Maybe an odd question but I've never come across another space, online or otherwise, where being GC is the norm. IRL I only ever discuss GC views openly with one family member, whose stance on it is similar to my own, though, so I'm not saying it's unwelcome.... Just curious how/why it's come about. Any thoughts or theories?

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ErrolTheDragon · 14/02/2024 09:05

I suppose that early internet experience did feed into my gender critical stance, coming back to the topic of the thread.
It made me think about why I'd been the only girl in my physics and chemistry A level classes, one other in double maths - even though we consistently beat the boys, for one thing. In a nutshell, though I wouldn't have used the word then, it was purely because of gendered expectations, not sexual differences.

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 14/02/2024 09:03

It was the bandwidth I was thinking of too. In the 90s we had sod all. We started on dial-up in 1996, which was for work though we were WFH. You'd go online, download what you needed and then disconnect as you were paying for every second. Around 2000 we got ADSL but broadband didn't come in where we lived until about mid-2000s.

The idea of kids being freely online in the 90s doesn't ring true to me.

ErrolTheDragon · 14/02/2024 08:55

I was on nascent pre-web internet forums in about 1984 - very much the domain of nerdy STEM postgrads, among whom I was usually the only woman. We discussed the relative merits of operating systems, played Mornington Crescent but also had a few good discussions about women's rights (and lack thereof) - it actually helped open my eyes to my own 'I'm all right, Jill' attitude at that point. Happy days!

Home Internet arrived in 1995 when I started WFH - ASDL broadband, which cost my company an arm and a leg with high telephone bills, so not there for non-work purposes.

BezMills · 14/02/2024 05:56

I didn't get on the web until 93, when I was at uni.

JanesLittleGirl · 13/02/2024 23:15

BoreOfWhabylon · 13/02/2024 21:50

Gosh. A massive sealion identifying as a fragile, delicate butterfly.

Hmm

Why is Mumsnet so GC?
Helleofabore · 13/02/2024 22:18

RedToothBrush · 13/02/2024 20:21

Also if you had dial up at home as a teenage in 1995, ok.

DH's dad had a job in the industry. I've just asked him when he got the internet ... It was before then btw. It was a good job.

Let's just say, you've got to be a spoilt brat rich kid or from a family from someone who worked in the industry to have the internet at home as a teen in 1995.

And that in itself is interesting for various reasons.

To be fair, by 1991 we had dial up at our place. Mind you DH was in IT and we were both part time uni students.

ApocalipstickNow · 13/02/2024 22:04

ArabellaScott · 13/02/2024 18:10

REBEL SPACESHIPS STRIKING FROM MUMSNET HAVE DECLARED TIME FOR PRONOUN BATTLES ON X TO BE SET ASIDE AND THE FORCES OF ALL WOMANLY ODOURS TO JOIN TOGETHER IN A FINAL EFFORT TO GET SIR KEIR TO WISE UP

If we’re doing that I want Leia’s gold bikini.

BoreOfWhabylon · 13/02/2024 21:50

Gosh. A massive sealion identifying as a fragile, delicate butterfly.

JanesLittleGirl · 13/02/2024 20:51

You do not have to be a farmer to recognise bullshit.

RedToothBrush · 13/02/2024 20:26

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/02/2024 17:28

Butterfly's flights of fancy get ever more overblown with every new thread.

It's quite comedy. At time I wonder if it's my brother or one of his mates.

Like it's so freaking weird the things in common.

That shouldn't be the case.

RedToothBrush · 13/02/2024 20:21

Also if you had dial up at home as a teenage in 1995, ok.

DH's dad had a job in the industry. I've just asked him when he got the internet ... It was before then btw. It was a good job.

Let's just say, you've got to be a spoilt brat rich kid or from a family from someone who worked in the industry to have the internet at home as a teen in 1995.

And that in itself is interesting for various reasons.

RedToothBrush · 13/02/2024 20:14

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 13/02/2024 17:27

The internet went from an initial collection of tiny chaotic islands populated by a high proportion of open-minded (often queer or otherwise marginalised in some way within regular society) people excited about its potential, to a brutal lawless frontier where the excesses of 90's lad culture were replicated with even fewer consequences for the perpetrators of harm. It was horrendous.

Aw bless, is that how you imagine it used to be? I've been online since it was all ArpaNet and then UseNet. And we used to complain how much of it was misogyny, porn and aggression, and we'd dream how much less nasty and vicious it would be when more women had access to it and it wasn't just a gaggle of techy blokes with poor social skills.

How we laugh about that now.

Quite.

I think that sexism existed prior to the ladism of the 1990s.

Emotionalsupportviper · 13/02/2024 20:10

ButterflyHatched · 13/02/2024 13:33

This is fascinating! You must have been one of the 'GenderCritical' Redditors then. I remember first seeing that 'single patient low IQ' paper on there which became something of a defining article of faith within the steadily crystallising GC canon.

It's surreal to see people talking about trans-negative views as if they're something novel or fresh - prior to the gamergate-era Great Awakening of online culture following the gradual social shifts that had paved the way for gay marriage, they were nigh-ubiquitous and the idea of someone receiving any kind of negative consequences for saying horrible things about trans people would have been laughed out the door. Suddenly anyone who felt incensed at no longer being able to freely use transphobic slurs without consequence had a ready-made cause and rhetorical base to jump into in order to prosecute the war on Political Correctness - but while that elevated profile brought political weight, it of course made continuing under the Radfem name untenable.

Plenty of remnants of the World Before still remained online, however - some of them crystallised into outright mask-off islands of hate after giving up on moderation entirely, while some chose the challenging road of continuing to allow open and robust debate while trying to address the worst excesses of the raging culture war being fought within their confines.

Mumsnet took the brave decision to remain as open as possible - a stance I respect even though I cannot help but lament the effect that choice has had on the codification and propagation of the British anti-trans movement.

the British anti-trans movement.

It isn't "anti-trans".

It's "pro-women".

There is a difference.

BezMills · 13/02/2024 19:47

It's mumsnet, not your blog, mate

IwantToRetire · 13/02/2024 19:45

I assume this massive derail is in fact a clever and subtle way of illustrating why mumnet is so GC.

It's not even a choice.

Its survival instinct.

The need to not let the tide of male entitlement submerge us.

NotBadConsidering · 13/02/2024 19:43

First time online was in 1995. I specifically went in search of other people like me and it turned out that they were out there if you could work out where to look. You just had to be so, so, so careful.

So at the age of 11 or so, you were plugging in the dial up internet, taking up the phone line for the evening and seeking out “people like [you]” and having discussions you described as

We had those debates. Over and over and over and over again. We allowed the discussion to be reset back to base principles and run through again and again because we wanted people to have a chance to walk themselves onto the target

Of course you were. How incredibly precocious, talented, time rich, well equiped and articulate you must have been to have accomplished this. Presumably you had a dedicated phone line, no homework, no set bed time, school the next day didn’t matter. And you used that time on the internet to seek out trans people. And by the end of the decade, you ended up medically transitioning.

So we could be saying that even back in the 1990s, spending unregulated time on the internet contributes to being convinced medical transition is the correct path?

It really demonstrates why we shouldn’t rely on the retrospective rose-tinted history of middle aged males as a guiding narrative for treating today’s youth, doesn’t it? They can’t remember anything properly.

LentilFaculties · 13/02/2024 18:32

Socialisation sometimes really shows.

RedToothBrush · 13/02/2024 18:25

ButterflyHatched · 13/02/2024 17:12

The internet went from an initial collection of tiny chaotic islands populated by a high proportion of open-minded (often queer or otherwise marginalised in some way within regular society) people excited about its potential, to a brutal lawless frontier where the excesses of 90's lad culture were replicated with even fewer consequences for the perpetrators of harm. It was horrendous.

The advent of the era of social media saw this digital landscape steadily colonised until it had largely become a homogenous expanse that replicated offline culture. Bigotry unfortunately reigned supreme here, as it did offline. We started seeing tone-deaf nonsense like Zuckerburg's announcement that privacy is dead and amongst those who had found refuge in the freedom of earlier online communities, there was a general sense that we were inexorably moving toward a miserable new dark age.

A significant sea change around 2012 (which had actually been gathering momentum for some time beforehand, and culminated in Laverne Cox's appearance on the cover of Time in 2014) saw the rise of a (sometimes naive and awkward) new culture of tolerance and acceptance of difference alongside a desire to see previously unpunished harmful behaviours brought to light and challenged. This mainstream expression of a new intersectional, highly race-and-class conscious feminism was unfortunately met by a fierce reactionary turn which enabled the rise of the Alt-Right in the US and set us down the road that led to the promotion of recycled Greer/Raymond-style anti-trans rhetoric into mainstream media dominance in the UK.

After it became clear that the battle to prevent gay rights from becoming legally and culturally enshrined had been lost and a new strategic approach was required, the US-based anti-LGBT Family Research Council announced a new strategy at their annual Values Voter Summit in 2017:

"The first is to "divide and conquer. For all its recent success, the LGBT alliance is actually fragile and the trans activists need the gay rights movement to help legitimize them."

"Trans and gender identity are a tough sell, so focus on gender identity to divide and conquer."

"Gender identity on its own is just a bridge too far. If we separate the T from the alphabet soup we’ll have more success."

From this new standpoint, we saw a concerted, sustained international effort to drive a wedge into the LGBT community by amplifying and weaponising the voices of existing anti-trans groups and ideologies while masking them with 'progressive' sounding rhetoric. You can see the initial attempts at this approach in evidence on the Heritage Foundation's 2017 article "How to Think About Sexual Orientation and Gender Identity (SOGI) Policies and Religious Freedom"

This backswing gathered a great deal of momentum under the conservative governments in the UK and US and culminated in concerted attacks on hard-won LGBT legal protections and provisions including the imposition of several laws banning trans healthcare for children in US states and the destruction of the UK's already faltering childhood Gender Identity Development Service alongside the adoption of an anti-trans position as a major election issue.

The reactionary nature of the 'Gender Critical' movement alongside the behaviour and associations of its shadier supporters eventually proved too divisive, however, and it is currently in the process of collapsing under the weight of its own differences.

Only time will tell which of the various component groups that form the 'Gender Critical' coalition will survive the increased scrutiny that comes from such a rise in prominence.

Wow that's proper word salad.

Kucinghitam · 13/02/2024 18:15

I see #OperationLetThemSpeak is doing brilliant work 🙌

ArabellaScott · 13/02/2024 18:10

REBEL SPACESHIPS STRIKING FROM MUMSNET HAVE DECLARED TIME FOR PRONOUN BATTLES ON X TO BE SET ASIDE AND THE FORCES OF ALL WOMANLY ODOURS TO JOIN TOGETHER IN A FINAL EFFORT TO GET SIR KEIR TO WISE UP

watching star wars GIF
Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/02/2024 18:03

@ArabellaScott

ONLY TIME WILL TELL WHO WILL SURVIVE

IcakethereforeIam · 13/02/2024 17:53

The Internet of 90s had three ears, a left one, a right one and a lawless front one.

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 13/02/2024 17:48

I was a grown up in the 90s, with a house and everything, and the 'internet' was pretty much non-existent, apart from people using isolated corners for their work. Images were still 600 pixels wide, max, and there was no social media to speak of. I have no recollections of a 'lawless frontier'. At all.

AlisonDonut · 13/02/2024 17:41

That is fucking hilarious Butters.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 13/02/2024 17:41

ArabellaScott · 13/02/2024 17:33

IT WAS A TIME FOR WAR. IT WAS A TIME FOR HEROES. IT WAS A TIME WHEN THE NET WAS WILD, PORN WAS FREE AND LAVERNE COX RULED THE WORLD.

THEN GERMAINE GREER ARRIVED TO RUIN EVERYTHING WITH HER WOMANLY SMELL.

NOW IN 2024 A LOOSE GROUP OF REBELS HAVE TAKEN AGAINST THE FEDERATION VOWING TO FIGHT THE INCORRECT INTERPRETATION OF THE EQUALITY ACT EVERYWHERE.

ETC

ETC

GrinGrinGrin