Why is Mumsnet so GC?

The fact you see arguing on twitter and come to the conclusion that there is a fracture in a movement that doesn't actually exist is utterly fascinating and reflective of a lot of the problem tbh.

The fact that he can't see that people can have differences of opinion, yet still respect each other's arguments and not just throw a strop about disagreement and flounce off screaming hate, says a lot, too.

Someone spends too much time on twitter in a bubble.

There is no movement.

There is spontaneous grass roots understanding and growing awareness of the injustice and flawed logic that transwomen are the most oppressed and women need to be the ones to change to accommodate that.

The damn burst fucking ages ago on that.

Women are talking amongst themselves and men are starting to just get pissed off at it all. And the examples of injustice and problematic scenarios which are causing systematic safeguarding failures and freedom of speech failures just keep growing.

An idea is only as good as it works in practice. Gender replacing sex only creates harms to wider society. Someone with gender identity issues needs to deal with them themselves rather than expecting the whole world to play along. This might sound harsh, but that's the reality.

That means open categories and women only categories in sport. That means single sex provision anywhere there is a state of undress or discussion of intimate issues or bodily functions as an absolute minimum. That could mean provision of third spaces too though, but alongside single sex and not replacing them and not transforming existing womens facilities (this reducing provision) but not mens.

The fact you see arguing on twitter and come to the conclusion that there is a fracture in a movement that doesn't actually exist is utterly fascinating and reflective of a lot of the problem tbh.

Last time was an answer about womanhood being a constellation of data points. So Hatched, have you come up with a new answer or sticking to the constellation?

I doubt it will become true if you keep saying 'no it isn't' harder.

I'm sorry that the coalition is starting to disintegrate and I can only imagine how betrayed you must feel. Many of the wave riders summoned by mainstream media tut-factories and embittered authors are letting the mask slip now and have given up pretending that they ever actually gave a damn about feminism at all.

I'd have thought this a time to rejoice - you don't have to keep pretending the people who have hijacked your cause don't exist anymore!

Zero chance of a coherent answer. We've been asking for years.

“a simple linguistic politeness” = “a lie”

Lies, when repeated often enough, have serious consequences.

Strange inference 🙄. You’re admitting that the insistence that men can’t be women and that humans can’t change sex is in conflict with those two acts, then?

If that’s the case then yes, I wish them to be changed. The protected category of sex should be the sex people are, and always will be, not anything that can be altered legally.

I would support the continuation of the GRA if you can explain to me how a man can “live as a woman” without using stereotypes.

Presumably this subject came up in the intense online discussions you had online between 1995 and 2004 when it was introduced.

So how do you define “live as a woman”?

You wish to remove the existing legal protections established for transgender people under the 2010 Equality Act and the 2004 Gender Recognition Act?

It sounds like simply removing these will not create the society you want.

It’s a metaphor. Keep on pushing for the insistence that men aren’t women and humans can’t change sex, and legislate accordingly to protect women’s rights. To not compromise that some men can be called women and some men can be treated as women if they’re nice enough.

You should know this. You’ve been arguing about it online since you were 12 years old on your dial up internet in the 1990s.

What does 'advance' mean in this case?

I'm sorry that the coalition is starting to disintegrate

🤣🤣🤣

It’s really not. It’s a debate about the final push. Advance or hold ground? I say charge!

I'm sorry that the coalition is starting to disintegrate

🤣🤣🤣

It’s really not. It’s a debate about the final push. Advance or hold ground? I say charge!

Thanks Eresh and 🍷 for you too.

I recall years ago on here refuting the idea that this is a "movement" or a "cause". It's too simplistic.

I find all perspectives of interest and understanding the motivation behind people's statements is integral to that. The tendency to labeling is a fascinating human thing that seems to generate millions of words but I find useful nuggets emerge from the conflicting positions that in the end advances understanding for everyone if we can use it.

I don't really feel negative about the fights because better understanding emerges from all the bashing about of words.

What's a non-extreme trans activist?

You seem to have walked yourself onto calling every person remotely interested in creating and maintaining legal protections for transgender people over the last several decades an 'extreme trans activist' and have nowhere left to go from here. There seems to be no room for granularity, nuance or de-escalation.

I doubt it will become true if you keep saying 'no it isn't' harder.

I'm sorry that the coalition is starting to disintegrate and I can only imagine how betrayed you must feel. Many of the wave riders summoned by mainstream media tut-factories and embittered authors are letting the mask slip now and have given up pretending that they ever actually gave a damn about feminism at all.

I'd have thought this a time to rejoice - you don't have to keep pretending the people who have hijacked your cause don't exist anymore!

I join you in hoping for greater changes in policy and guidelines and law. However, where that was, even just as covid hit, considered almost a caricature of evilness, now we can have that discussion. And there are politicians in Labour who are willing to keep fighting. So, I am more optimistic in some ways rethinking. I think that the horse has already bolted and the awareness will not be pushed back into a subversive stable. It will unfortunately take time.

Look how long it took for extreme trans activists to get the results they worked and planned for after all. Sadly, it will take longer than we want. And yes, I absolutely agree that it is devastating to think of the harm caused to women and girls before we get all the protections we need in place.

'The reactionary nature of the 'Gender Critical' movement alongside the behaviour and associations of its shadier supporters eventually proved too divisive, however, and it is currently in the process of collapsing under the weight of its own differences."

This is hilarious.

No. the 'movement' isn't in the process of collapsing at all. The people who are working and campaigning to prioritise sex above gender when sex matters are still working towards that goal. The groups have always been different. We have been repeating this endlessly on these threads every fucking time someone who lacks critical thinking ability repeats the thought terminating 'guilt by alignment' fallacy that feminists were ever 'aligned' with nazis.

So. Someone who makes this ridiculous claim lacks insight and most likely lacks that critical thinking ability as well.

What has also happened is that the discussion about autogynephilia has become rather more exposed. And with that the prevalence of AGP, the attempts for some to discredit it as a paraphilia, and the concept of consent has been very robustly and loudly discussed.

Also, the topic of pronouns has been endless. And with that endless discussion, so many more people have had to evaluate their stance on pronouns and have had to listen to why others do and don't. And guess what. Those people declaring that they use preferred pronouns only ever seem to have the reason 'because it is kind' to defend against the many negative impacts to people individually and collectively to women and children.

No. There is no 'collapse'. There is discussion. Robust discussion.

Schisms have happened before and have not had a negative overall impact. This is the history of feminism. I doubt there will be an overall negative impact now. Instead, there will be more groups formed and more submissions to MPs and governments to campaign for the overall prioritisation of sex over gender. There will be more groups demanding that there is clarity in law and in policy. This will spur action from the newly formed groups so that more people are involved.

No. no collapse. It might not be pleasant reading twitter at the moment. However, the major feminism groups are still just as strong.

Talk about not really understanding feminism history and the current situation.