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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Why is Mumsnet so GC?

834 replies

ireallycantthinkofaname · 03/02/2024 00:18

Maybe an odd question but I've never come across another space, online or otherwise, where being GC is the norm. IRL I only ever discuss GC views openly with one family member, whose stance on it is similar to my own, though, so I'm not saying it's unwelcome.... Just curious how/why it's come about. Any thoughts or theories?

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Datun · 20/02/2024 19:11

theilltemperedclavecinist · 20/02/2024 16:33

They see the way women are together and they want a part of it. Not realising that as soon as they attempt it, what they wanted has disappeared already.

I find this very sad. For some at least, it's an unsought for and unassuageable desire.

Normally you would expect such a topic to inspire drama and literature. But what we've seen has been mostly one-sided, shallow and insipid.

Indeed. And you'd also think that it would inspire some kind of affinity with women, wouldn't you?

But, no.

theilltemperedclavecinist · 20/02/2024 16:33

They see the way women are together and they want a part of it. Not realising that as soon as they attempt it, what they wanted has disappeared already.

I find this very sad. For some at least, it's an unsought for and unassuageable desire.

Normally you would expect such a topic to inspire drama and literature. But what we've seen has been mostly one-sided, shallow and insipid.

ErrolTheDragon · 20/02/2024 13:05

Dismantling the unnecessary and constricting edifices of gender is good, but only if you can refrain from bulldozing the Chesterton's fences which are in a limited number of cases required between the sexes. If you can't comprehend why they're there and women defend them, it'd be a good idea to back off, not try to push through.

Helleofabore · 20/02/2024 12:10

Datun · 20/02/2024 12:01

It's the unremitting self-centredness that gets to me.

All the more stark on a board about feminism, which, by its very nature, looks outwards towards other women.

I see all the women fighting for this, even the ones who disagree with each other, Janice, Posey, Julie, Clare, and they're all still looking outwards.

They're all getting absolutely fucking infuriated with the sexism.

On behalf of other women.

I literally cannot imagine what it must be like to walk around with male entitlement. Blithely contemplating life from those lofty heights. Fondly imagining that people's reaction to you is something to do with you, and not fucking millennia of socialisation.

And they don't even know it. They genuinely cannot see it.

There's a part of me that occasionally feels sorry for them, in a strange way. That they're walking through life with one eye half closed.

I imagine this might be part of the jealousy to do with women. It can't all just be about tits and arse.

They see the way women are together and they want a part of it.

Not realising that as soon as they attempt it, what they wanted has disappeared already.

"Not realising that as soon as they attempt it, what they wanted has disappeared already."

Yes...

And yet, they can always recreate it to suit themselves in their own group.

The narcissism of demanding that constant right to change everything to suit themselves never sinks into their awareness. But then, I guess that is the point.

But the utmost belief that just by stating their own perceived reality they should be accepted is exactly the male entitlement we continuously point out. And it just keeps on coming. But funnily the attempts at sounding 'intellectual' just makes some posters who try to convince us to accept the impossible seem the opposite instead. It comes across as word salad.

And I look at my own posts and cringe half the time because it is pretzels and word salad, so I consider myself an expert on this. 😁

Datun · 20/02/2024 12:01

Helleofabore · 20/02/2024 10:31

You know Datun it is a great learning experience though for any person reading who cannot yet pick male entitlement/privilege or misogyny. These posts just continue to be part of the learning process for us all.

It's the unremitting self-centredness that gets to me.

All the more stark on a board about feminism, which, by its very nature, looks outwards towards other women.

I see all the women fighting for this, even the ones who disagree with each other, Janice, Posey, Julie, Clare, and they're all still looking outwards.

They're all getting absolutely fucking infuriated with the sexism.

On behalf of other women.

I literally cannot imagine what it must be like to walk around with male entitlement. Blithely contemplating life from those lofty heights. Fondly imagining that people's reaction to you is something to do with you, and not fucking millennia of socialisation.

And they don't even know it. They genuinely cannot see it.

There's a part of me that occasionally feels sorry for them, in a strange way. That they're walking through life with one eye half closed.

I imagine this might be part of the jealousy to do with women. It can't all just be about tits and arse.

They see the way women are together and they want a part of it.

Not realising that as soon as they attempt it, what they wanted has disappeared already.

Helleofabore · 20/02/2024 10:31

Datun · 20/02/2024 10:03

Oh God, that's hilarious!

You ignore red's unprecedentedly comprehensive post about why sex matters and how women are disadvantaged by it, with a but listen to me, what about me, this is all about meeee.

How's that 'entire life defying and dismantling gendered strictures and expectations' working out for you?? 😁

Still 'hammering bricks out of that wall'?

Honestly.

😆

Edited

You know Datun it is a great learning experience though for any person reading who cannot yet pick male entitlement/privilege or misogyny. These posts just continue to be part of the learning process for us all.

Datun · 20/02/2024 10:04

ArabellaScott · 20/02/2024 09:38

I miss people whistling.

Me too.

Datun · 20/02/2024 10:03

ButterflyHatched · 19/02/2024 11:46

It is a ridiculous paradox by design and it's deeply disheartening to see you and other posters on this board indulge it.

Trans women have to live with being beaten over the head with gender stereotypes regardless of whether they conform to them or not. We are either manipulative and passively conforming to gender stereotypes or we are abrasive and entitled if we stand up for ourselves and bite back with identical language to that used by other posters. There's no substance to it - any more than there is to the same misogynistic tactics used against women worldwide to silence and chastise us.

I already see this happen in the workplace all the fucking time to both myself and my colleagues in meetings and email threads and it is so damn tedious. To see it perpetuated by regulars on a feminism board of all places is exhausting.

There are so many sticks to beat trans women over the head with already - why resort to the same tired misogynistic catch-22 that plagues us all?

Oh God, that's hilarious!

You ignore red's unprecedentedly comprehensive post about why sex matters and how women are disadvantaged by it, with a but listen to me, what about me, this is all about meeee.

How's that 'entire life defying and dismantling gendered strictures and expectations' working out for you?? 😁

Still 'hammering bricks out of that wall'?

Honestly.

😆

ArabellaScott · 20/02/2024 09:38

I miss people whistling.

JacksonLambsEatIvy · 20/02/2024 08:53

I might start telling my sons not to whistle because it’s unladylike (rather than annoying). My teen would laugh.

Emotionalsupportviper · 20/02/2024 08:39

Waitingfordoggo · 19/02/2024 21:55

Absolutely agree. I used the word ‘ladylike’ with my tongue firmly in cheek. It’s a set of stereotypes isn’t it? There are all sorts of notions around it and they’ll vary depending on who you ask. But it might be things like…

-Drinking white wine spritzers instead of pints of beer

-Giggling and tossing your hair

-Enjoying shopping as a leisure activity

-Enjoying ‘pampering’

-Refraining from burping, swearing or whistling

All of it nonsense of course.

My FIL doesn’t like hearing me whistle and always tells me it’s unladylike, to which I obviously laugh. He’s known me for 25 years and is still labouring under the misapprehension that ‘ladylike’ means anything to me at all and that it is something I might care about 😂

I used to whistle cheerily at work and was "pulled" by a manager who said it was unladylike (accountant's office, circa 1970) and to stop.

He said - in a very superior way. "A whistling woman and a crowing hen are use to neither God nor men"

Happily an older lady in the office piped up with "You're misquoting, Mr X - It should be "A woman who whistles and a hen that crows will make her way wherever she goes.""

I could have hugged her!

Waitingfordoggo · 20/02/2024 07:50

Yes, that’s fair enough- I know lots of people find whistling annoying.

JacksonLambsEatIvy · 20/02/2024 07:44

@Waitingfordoggo Tbh, I hate whistling and tell my kids off if they do it around me. Although my rationale there is ‘it’s annoying’.

I agree that the term ‘ladylike’ is awful.

lostwithoutpronouns · 19/02/2024 21:58

Yes, having constantly to reiterate that males aren't women is definitely making it harder to deal with sexism today.

But then that's the point, isn't it?

Waitingfordoggo · 19/02/2024 21:55

RedToothBrush · 19/02/2024 09:16

Being ladylike?

What does that mean?

I find this one a bit of a paradox.

It's on the one hand supposed to be about being polite, respectful, having a significant amount of empathy for others, listening more than speaking, caring and being deferential to the wants and needs of others

Then you get a man come along, say they have all the 'lady essence' whilst demanding their rights are being trampled on and they demand more respect, shout about how they aren't listened to enough and aren't getting want they want and show a total lack of empathy. And the gender critical women here aren't allowed to demand respect and the maintenance of their rights because they don't like it and it's mean and transphobic.

It's gender stereotypes that don't serve the interests of women and somehow these are aren't applicable to the males who come along claiming they've been oppressed and want to impose gender stereotypes on us even more.

It's bonkers. Bollocks to that.

Absolutely agree. I used the word ‘ladylike’ with my tongue firmly in cheek. It’s a set of stereotypes isn’t it? There are all sorts of notions around it and they’ll vary depending on who you ask. But it might be things like…

-Drinking white wine spritzers instead of pints of beer

-Giggling and tossing your hair

-Enjoying shopping as a leisure activity

-Enjoying ‘pampering’

-Refraining from burping, swearing or whistling

All of it nonsense of course.

My FIL doesn’t like hearing me whistle and always tells me it’s unladylike, to which I obviously laugh. He’s known me for 25 years and is still labouring under the misapprehension that ‘ladylike’ means anything to me at all and that it is something I might care about 😂

Emotionalsupportviper · 19/02/2024 20:49

Crankywiddershins · 19/02/2024 19:43

Of course it is! But thanks for making me snort laugh, the cat just gave me a look and left the room!

Sometimes the mood just has to be lifted or we would despair! 😀

JanesLittleGirl · 19/02/2024 20:49

I love bacon rinds. Our bacon is rind on. We cut the rind off and fry it separately. It curls up tight and is a lovely, crunchy, salty delight.

Crankywiddershins · 19/02/2024 19:43

Emotionalsupportviper · 19/02/2024 19:35

Rubbish!

It's the gassy bacon rinds.

Of course it is! But thanks for making me snort laugh, the cat just gave me a look and left the room!

ErrolTheDragon · 19/02/2024 19:41

The second of these isn't always as easy as it should be.

Nor the first, in some cultures.

Sex is determined before birth, gender is what assigns different worth based on it.

Hepwo · 19/02/2024 19:40

ButterflyHatched · 19/02/2024 16:45

It's incredibly difficult to talk about these real and important issues facing women when a conservative rearguard keeps resetting the discussion back to whether or not you really, really provably definitely fulfil all the criteria of womanhood like it's 1979.

Absolutely, that's exactly what trans rights activists are doing to us. I'm glad you recognize that problem.

Emotionalsupportviper · 19/02/2024 19:35

Crankywiddershins · 19/02/2024 19:26

I've NEVER been asked if I was going to have children, probably the stink from the raw fish heads 🤢

Rubbish!

It's the gassy bacon rinds.

Waitwhat23 · 19/02/2024 19:33

Emotionalsupportviper · 19/02/2024 13:48

Say it, sistah!

Shout it from the rooftops!

Agreed - some brilliant posts today from RedToothBrush.

Emotionalsupportviper · 19/02/2024 19:33

Boiledbeetle · 19/02/2024 17:05

Only a woman can fulfil all the criteria of womanhood.

You need two things

1 Be born female
2 survive to adulthood.

That's it.

The second of these isn't always as easy as it should be.

ArabellaScott · 19/02/2024 19:30

Mohur · 19/02/2024 17:33

I remember 1979. Women earnt considerably less than men, whilst working harder due to the unequal domestic burden they carried. They were subject to domestic violence and sexual violence at epic levels with no effective state response, lacked access to affordable childcare, safe abortion, suitable healthcare, and were blighted by poverty in later life due to pension inequalities. To add insult to injury they were marginalised, humilated and abused if they failed to adopt sterotyped presentation and behaviours as a good and attractive girl/wife/mother.

This resulted in widespread psychological distress, which was treated as individual pathology and not a response to social injustice.

Well, the men have seen your oppression and find it thrilling. They've claimed it as their own now - in fact, they have it far worse.

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