Just 5 trans women in women’s jails - Inside Time article

We discriminate against males in single sex spaces, to keep women safe.

You find that bigoted.

I find your beliefs bigoted against vulnerable women.

Again it's not the notion that spaces might need to be single sex. Id happily debate that all day. It's problematic deliberately misgendering people, THAT is what is bigoted.

We discriminate against males in single sex spaces, to keep women safe.

You find that bigoted.

I find your beliefs bigoted against vulnerable women.

You'd think it was so dysphoric for them that they'd be unable to manage, yet somehow they cope. Strange how male transgenders cannot do the same.

I think the number of gay women that are masc presenting in female estate means they don't stand out too much. Women are also far more accepting. However in male estate transwomen stand out like a sore thumb and other prisoners either treat them worse than animals or rape them. They can't cope because of the real risks to them.

Transmen are never placed in male estates due to the risk to them.

You'd think it was so dysphoric for them that they'd be unable to manage, yet somehow they cope. Strange how male transgenders cannot do the same.

It is also odd that all those politicians and influencers squeaking that transwomen simply MUST be placed with women are not saying that tramsnmen must be placed with the men.

I've already stated that I do not believe that transwomen with a history of violent offences have any place in female prisons. But they are equally incredibly vulnerable in male estates, they are likely to be victims of sexual offences when placed on VP wings with sex offenders. So what is the solution you are suggesting?

I will certainly have a listen at some point today 😊

I notice you didn't bother addressing my question about power dynamics and the tendency to fawn. Have you ever seen that behaviour on any of the female wings and VP units you know about?

What power do you believe a non violent trans prisoner has?

Fawning? Really? Now I know for certain you either haven't set foot in a prison for a very long time, or certainly haven't spent time on a wing for a very long time, so if you do work in a prison you are likely to be a pen pusher. The prisoners are too busy either getting high or trying to complete suicide. Heaven forbid we promote friendships and a sense a community to reduce either of those things eh?

https://open.spotify.com/episode/4kiybGqqnUZjRMWDmYLjOF?si=FAnJwi_GRDGz-WRflhn6cA

I think this (and others from Paddy O'Gorman's series) could be worth a listen of you are interested to hear lived experiences RMN?

I agree with PonyPatter that appeasement and alliance formation (which may be positive or negative) is a common motivation for gift giving and resource sharing in primate social structures with unequal power dynamics. It can be a sign of affection (in itself potentially problematic in this scenario) and friendship, but is definitely not proof of it.

I really wouldn't class styling each others hair as gifting. Unless you have equal concerns that prison barbers are also gifting? Or is this again just moral panic and painting non violent trans prisoners to be folk devil?

Yeah but there's expressing your concerns in a curious way, then there's outright being bigoted. There's also a massive difference between competitive swimmers sharing a shower with transwomen and competing against them, to a transwoman being in a single cell in prison.

Well, give me more information.

What is this hypothetical trans prisoner in prison for?

What is their risk status?

Is this hypothetical woman forced to share a cell/spur/landing/block/shower/exercise yard with them?

Why does this hypothetical woman find it upsetting?

@RMNofTikTok

Because people that have been to prison or have worked in prison do not waste their time pearl clutching over nonsense like this

If you met a woman currently in prison who said they found the presence of a trans woman on their wing to be upsetting / frightening etc due to trauma, would you tell them they were pearly clutching?

Would you tell them that you think most of the other inmates don't mind so they should get over it and stop pearl clutching?

Oh and I have no experience of prison. But I also have no experience of competitive swimming but I am pretty pissed of that women and girls are expected to compete against men.

I don’t think not having direct experience of a system should exclude people from being able to express their worries.

Isn’t it the same old question but different scenario.

How many women who are not ok with it does it become not ok?

1 woman? 10? 50?

There is a road I cross everyday to take my kids to school. It’s a dangerous road, 50mph duel carriage way with a pedestrian crossing. Cares regularly go through a red light. Yet it is the main root for a number of primary school kids. Lots of us parents have asked for a lower speed limit, a walkway, anything….

The Highways response - they won’t change anything unless there is a fatality.

I worry that this is the case for women in prison with TW (not necessarily a fatality but an assault of some sort) and then I worry that no one will give a damn. Because you know ‘you did the crime’.

By the sound of it, yes.

I agree with PonyPatter that appeasement and alliance formation (which may be positive or negative) is a common motivation for gift giving and resource sharing in primate social structures with unequal power dynamics. It can be a sign of affection (in itself potentially problematic in this scenario) and friendship, but is definitely not proof of it.

I'm certainly not going to give you my employee number, but I assure you that I have certainly worked for HMP for a very long time and don't feel the need to embroider that.

I notice you didn't bother addressing my question about power dynamics and the tendency to fawn. Have you ever seen that behaviour on any of the female wings and VP units you know about?

Also, why are you "campaigning " for more trans wings? The wing at Downview is not well-received, I understand. There are more TWs at Littlehey and none of them** are interested in going to Downview.

**caveat - very informal poll carried out in the prison 2.5 years ago.

Hair accessories.

Wll that's encouraging for the men.

I beg your fucking pardon? I've worked in HMP for 11 years, I am senior within my establishment, and I bloody DO care about "nonsense like this". There are many senior managers in HMP who are still fighting this.

Of course you are 😁 and if you are, you are part of the problem I'm afraid. Those of us that actually give a shit are campaigning for more trans wings, not to lock vulnerable people up with sex offenders on VP wings.

Lauren Jeska is always the one I think of, an extremely vulnerable, long transitioned person who apparently is in the female estate. Reading about them always suggests to me that they are neurodiverse but I don't know that.

Who also attempted murder, leaving their victim with life changing injuries. I've made various attempts to understand how many women are in prison for attempted murder but I find the stats difficult to tease apart. Not surprisingly perhaps as the numbers are quite small for each crime so potentially individuals could become identifiable.

I'm really amazed to hear that as long as you enjoy chatting about hair accessories, if convicted you should be in female prisons. I don't and have never assumed that female prisoners keep transwomen at arm's length. I do think that the dynamics of having a small subset of male prisoners in female prisons are complex and, fundamentally, not for the women's benefit.

Did you take your pearls in to clutch though, were you given that CHOICE?

I beg your fucking pardon? I've worked in HMP for 11 years, I am senior within my establishment, and I bloody DO care about "nonsense like this". There are many senior managers in HMP who are still fighting this.

First time I was locked in a cell I was 10. Last time I was in a prison cell I was in my 30s.

Yes, we've hit an implosion point there!

Choice!

And don't speak.