Just 5 trans women in women’s jails - Inside Time article

And prior to the changes in policy I could completely understand why people were outraged. Obviously I can only go on the female estate that I worked in, but I've never known anyone with a penis go to female estate in reality. There was one exception years ago, in an area I did not work in, which was widely publicised, for Tara Hudson. That is the only exception I am aware of in England. Clearly Scottish policy was too liberal previously and it's great the rules there have been tightened up.

Those links explicitly imply that there are male people with penises in the female estate for whom exemption from the new policy will be needed. And the policy changed less than a year ago - so plenty of people in their right minds thought it was ok for a long time.

The original court case leading to transwomen in female prisons was after all fought on the basis that the prisoner could not get genital surgery until they were living in the female estate - that being surrounded by women was the only way they could prove they were womanly enough for surgery. The use of female prisoners in that way by the legal system and the NHS still shocks me.

It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if you think he was lovely or if others thought he was lovely. You have no way of knowing if all the women thought he was lovely and were happy to have him there.

A man with no penis is not a woman FFS.

We are talking about women in their most vulnerable state. I don't believe the poster who says that they can refuse/ say no to a TW.

Putting men in a woman's prison can never ever be justified. It runs contrary to the Geneva Convention.

Women who support this are losing their minds. Women are not human shields to vulnerable males. Even ones who've done acts of extreme body modification.

I think you are struggling to understand because you have not met the prisoner in question!

Exactly. I don't think anyone in their right mind would support someone with a penis being in female estate. Nobody with a penis has been housed in female estate for a while, as outlined at www.gov.uk/government/news/new-transgender-prisoner-policy-comes-into-force

There's a whole PSI written on how the decision is made, you can find it here.

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/659e906fe96df5000df843e2/transgender-pf.pdf

I really enjoyed reading that study.

Regardless of any bias of the researcher, I came away thinking: so the transwomen who perform a particular version of femininity (no penis, visual presentation and softer, kinder, less abrasive in relationship, vulnerable and needing support) are more accepted and seen as less threatening than those who don't. And the actual women who are in prison are diverse and female in a wide range of ways.

i keep coming back to wondering who gets to decide a trans identified male is enough of a "woman" to be in a female prison? It seems a lot of work to say any man can declare himself a woman and then the system must both verify that (because of "false" claims) and risk assess it (because of potential harms).

I remember reading that study before and noting that statements that the researcher approved of stood alone but statements they didn't approve of were annotated or commented on negatively. But they're still there, in fairness.

I note that the discussion about prisoners that detransitioned after leaving prison is way down at he bottom as a buried short section, so it can't be linked easily with the super supportive long section about the 3 participants the researcher approved of. And yet it looks as if the lovely person who benefited from emotional and practical support from prisoners was also one of those who detransitioned as soon as they left prison.

The report says:

"All participants identified as white, some identified as lesbian, some bisexual, others as heterosexual."

This shows how definitions have become so confusing that it's hard to know what this actually means.

Does it mean heterosexual as their natal sex (so a man attracted to women) or heterosexual as the sex they identify as (so a woman attracted to men)?

Without knowing this, it's hard to say who that category is attracted to.

Language matters.

And here's some research from Scotland that (despite being carried out by a less than impartial researcher) shows that not all women are delighted to have TW to share makeup with. https://academic.oup.com/bjc/article/62/4/1000/6370239?

(Incidentally, when you get to the woman who thinks she could hold her own if it came to a fight, bear in mind the recent survey showing how many people also think they could win a fight against a lion.)

'Classed as' is not necessarily the same as 'are'. But the question stands - why would the methods used to keep safe the 210 TW (and any other men who are likely to be vulnerable for whatever reason) currently held in the male estate not work for the small number who are sent to women's prisons?

I just can't understand why you would uniquely be concerned about the vulnerability of trans identifying males in the male estate, over and above other very vulnerable groups of male prisoners in the male estate - very young men, men with learning difficulties, men with physical disabilities, men who are care experienced etc etc. Nor why the solution for this particular group for males is to put them in the female estate, when other solutions to mitigate the vulnerability of other groups of men is found within the male estate. And why the small numbers of trans identifying males in the female estate are treated so differently to the trans identifying males in the male estate. And why you are ok with that?

The risk assessment idea falls apart very quickly when you consider the woeful reporting, charging and conviction rates for sexual offences. It is a fact undenied by all agencies that many many many perpetrators of sexual crimes against women are never convicted. Relying on history of conviction for assessing whether a male is a risk is naivety at best.

And the real question is, why do we sex segregate prisons at all? Why do we not risk stratify and segregate all prisoners based on convictions, histories etc instead? You either think it is important, in which case stick to it. Or you don't in which case follow your logic to it's natural conclusion. There will be many many males in the male estate convicted of non violent, non sexual crimes. Why can't women mix with them too?

The idea that because women were exchanging hair accessories with a man means they were happy with his presence is both hilarious and terrifying coming from someone who seemingly has a role in these women’s welfare. It’s doesn’t take a huge leap of common sense that keeping him happy and onside would be a valuable survival strategy for women with no choice but to make do with the situation.

Old men, young men and disabled men may not be classed as vulnerable prisoners. The mean age of male prisoners in the UK was 21-29 until 2018 and is now 30-39 due to a large number of adult males entering prisons for historical sexual offences. The questions that you have asked indicate you have know sense of hirachy of age and offences in prison. Disabilities is very much dependant, most will be in general population.

I've given you several categories who are vulnerable regardless of their offence. How are they kept safe?

It is very unusual for transwomen to be on general population in female estate. Their location is specifically picked, usually with consent with other prisoners with whom they will be housed.

If they do that for 210 TW, why can't they do it for another 5?

I would ask the question that @NoBinturongsHereMate has just asked. That's what I'm mostly curious about right now.

I think you are misunderstanding the concept of "vulnerable male prisoners". Male prisoners on VP wings are vulnerable because they are largely sex offenders. How do you keep famine presenting prisoners safe on a wing of sex offenders?

It is very unusual for transwomen to be on general population in female estate. Their location is specifically picked, usually with consent with other prisoners with whom they will be housed.

Most interviews I have listened to come from prisoners that were not based in the uk, due to differences in set up they are not entirely relevant. How many British female prisoners are you aware of that felt unsafe because a transwoman was on their wing?

Why are the methods currently used for those 210 not suitable for the remaining handful?

How do you suggest keeping transwomen safe?

They can say no.

Really? Every woman on the wing/block is asked before a TW is moved in, and every woman subsequently placed there? In a way that genuinely allows them to give or withhold free and informed consent - bearing in mind both popular misunderstandings about TW and the power dynamics of staff asking prisoners questions to which they may not like the answers?

How many female prisoners sharing a landing with a transwoman live in constant fear?

How many would you find acceptable? For me, the answer is none.

What evidence do you have that transwomen in prison cause constant fear to women?

There have been plenty of interviews posted on this board. I'm sure you can find them.

As for prisons, how do you suggest keeping TW prisoners safe in male prisons?

The same way other vulnerable men are kept safe.

@RMNofTikTok according to the report, in March 2023 there were 210 transwomen in men's prisons in England, Wales and Scotland. Of course it doesn't say if they were safe. I still don't understand why this isn't a men's problem.

A lot of these prisons are not based in uk, so whilst their stories are sad they are irrelevant as they do not fit the uk justice system (or what's left of it).

What does VP in VP wings stand for if not vulnerable prisoner? Why should vulnerable people not be on the VP wing? Also MoJ own stats show that there is a disproportionately high percentage of sex offenders amongst trans identifying prisoners.

Vulnerable prisoner also = sex offender in prison. They are housed on VP wings. 20% of adult male prisoners are sex offenders. Are you claiming this % is higher for transwomen eg that more than 20% of transwomen in prison are there for sexual offences?

Men need to be in men's prison.
And GRC nonsense needs to stop.

I agree re GRCs.

As for prisons, how do you suggest keeping TW prisoners safe in male prisons?

It doesn't matter how 'safe' the man may be in theory, it is inhumane to subject women to constant fear simply to appease men who want to be there - for whatever reason.

How many female prisoners sharing a landing with a transwoman live in constant fear? What evidence do you have that transwomen in prison cause constant fear to women?