Just 5 trans women in women’s jails - Inside Time article

You have told us he is a man. I use correct sex pronouns. I do not believe in gender identity so I am not deliberately misgendering because I am not a believer, in the same way I can’t be guilty of blasphemy.

Why do the rules become bendier? Because it comes down to subjective assessment, doesn’t it? You think this man was ok. You can’t possibly entertain the possibility that there might have been women locked up with him who didn’t. Therefore people like you should certainly have no say in the subjective assessment of male prisoners. So you’re right, it’s best not to have bendy rules because people like you could easily bend them to your own perspective.

@RMNofTikTok

What I'm interested in is why you think that the safety and dignity of women should be put at risk to keep these males safe?

Why are women secondary to the safety of males?

How you can claim to be gender critical and hold these fundamentally anti women views baffles me.

So why do you think he should move out? So you don’t think his presence in the female estate is problem free then?

And why should women put up with him because of failings of the management of the male estate if it’s deemed he can’t be safely accommodated?

You know, I really find the persistent deliberate misgendering of individuals problematic and this is what comes across as bigoted. We can use they/them we do not need to refer to transwomen as he/him. It appears vexatious.

I do not believe this individual person was problematic in female estate, no. But as someone correctly said, when you start making exceptions it's easier for the rules to become bendier.

So why do you think he should move out? So you don’t think his presence in the female estate is problem free then?

And why should women put up with him because of failings of the management of the male estate if it’s deemed he can’t be safely accommodated?

Mr Accessorize 😂

So you agree that Mr Accessorize should be moved out of the female estate too?

I think if we can safely accommodate them in male estate, absolutely!

And that's exactly what I suggested... transgender wings.

So you agree that Mr Accessorize should be moved out of the female estate too?

By assessing them in the male estate and treating them in the male estate like all the other men who might be at risk in the male estate. If it can be done with other men it can be done with men who claim a trans identity, penis or not.

And that's exactly what I suggested... transgender wings.

What I'm interested in is how we can keep transwomen who have not committed violent crimes safe in prison.

By assessing them in the male estate and treating them in the male estate like all the other men who might be at risk in the male estate. If it can be done with other men it can be done with men who claim a trans identity, penis or not.

So either transwomen are more likely to be sex offender OR sex offenders are more likely to claim a trans identity. (I favour the latter)

Oh the latter is definitely correct! At the male prison I worked in 10% of sex offenders claimed to be transwomen! I think any attempts by sex offenders to transition once sentenced need to be ignored.

And I really disagree with this, stats for transwomen offending need to be included in male stats because they have male pattern offending.

@InvisibleBuffy I'm not writing people's views off as transphobic at all. I think it's brilliant that mumsnet allow these kinds of debates. As stated before, I am gender critical and I am inherently against the inclusion of transwomen in women's sports, refuges, etc. I'm also inherently aware that transwomen are louder as a population group and are hell bent in taking up space in female only spaces, whilst transmen largely just get on with it, and I feel this is because transwomen have been socialised as men.

What I'm interested in is how we can keep transwomen who have not committed violent crimes safe in prison.

But to get back to the stats, I seem to recall there was a problem with gathering stats some years ago because trans women were sometimes just being recorded as 'female' so there was no way statistically to distinguish them from actual female prisoners so it does make me wonder how accurate the numbers are.

This has turned into a very interesting thread. This is one the many places that we have substantial in-person testimony both from prison staff and prisoners that having trans women in female prison is traumatising and dangerous for women.
Its not really up for debate. There have been too many women who have whistle-blown. The only question is whether they are believed or if you care.
I'm guessing this poster was either junior member of staff, not one at all or one of the sadly many people who write off women raising complaints as transphobic.
It's impossible to acknowledge there has ever been a problem when you refuse to believe it when it's pointed out.
No idea if this poster ever did work in a prison, but it seems like a damn good thing they're not now

If I remember correctly, the FOI request to the MoJ (am I getting my acronyms right?) from 2017 showed that 48% of transwomen in prison were there for sexual offences.

So either transwomen are more likely to be sex offender OR sex offenders are more likely to claim a trans identity. (I favour the latter)

And this is why I said I support the use of specialist trans wings. Transwomen may not like them, but it's tough. This would protect transwomen from general population whilst segregating them from women.

The Scottish rules are being changed again. I think there's something in the proposed new rules about 'acceptable risk'.

The problem, as I see it, with the lovely, vulnerable tw, totally lacking in genatalia, who is only interested in hair, does a lovely smokey eye (you do have to wonder how he wound up behind bars, perhaps he used to manage a post office...on a submarine?) is that he's holding the door for the less lovely types.

If a rule is broken a little bit, it's still broken, it's not as strong as it was and it can be broken some more, then more until there's no rule left.

As for how to keep tw safe in prison, how do they keep any men safe? That's how. And now you'll tell me no men are safe in prison and then I'll say thats an issue for men and the prison service to solve.

They actually keep male prisoners as safe as possible by grouping them according to

Risk level
New receptions
Prisoners with substance misuse
Elderly prisoners
18-21 year olds
Prisoners with disabilities which make them more vulnerable.
Sex offenders.

The red herring is that the vulnerable prisoner wing is used exclusively for sex offenders, until they decide to stick a transwoman on it.

20% of adult male prisoners are sex offenders. Sex offenders are not usually a risk to adult male prisoners. They would however be a risk to trans women. Sex offenders are deemed vulnerable from other prisoners. I'm not sure why. I personally would throw them in with general population.

So if you won’t describe his as lovely, you’re describing that women had no problem with him based on

being as they were happily exchanging hair accessories and make up with them, the non verbal evidence was clear

and the sense of community in the female estate.

But it doesn’t matter if this male was a non-violent non-paedophile type prisoner. The dynamic of the community is changed with the presence of a male and it’s incredibly shallow to determine that no woman had a problem with him based on “happily exchanging hair accessories and make up with [them]”.

Stick any man, any man at all in any all female environment and the dynamic instantly changes. To not know this and to pretend it doesn’t matter and to be oblivious to this is pretty awful given your claimed expertise.

Your telling me they say no and no tw appears in their prison?

No, you said that. I said nobody is being forced to share a spur or a cell, which is correct.

Your telling me they say no and no tw appears in their prison?

Frankly I dont believe you. There would be no tw in prison if all these women were asked. Remember it only takes one to refuse men in their space, that one who says no, cannot be overridden by anyone saying yes.

As for how to keep tw safe in prison, how do they keep any men safe? That's how. And now you'll tell me no men are safe in prison and then I'll say thats an issue for men and the prison service to solve.

Isla was in Scotland, before they rightfully tightened the rules.

Isla Bryson had a penis. As demonstrated by the infamous leggings shot.

Authorities had no issue with including Isla, Complete with penis and sex offending convictions, in the women's prison, UNTIL the general public said wtaf?!

As they would again if these decisions were made more public.

It doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter if you think he was lovely or if others thought he was lovely. You have no way of knowing if all the women thought he was lovely and were happy to have him there.

I wouldn't describe any prisoner as "lovely", that would be a gross neglect of boundaries.

Again, I don't think you are understanding the sense of community in female estates. They are nothing like male estates, which are rife with gang members, murderers, paedophiles and are inherently dangerous. Most women are in prison for non violent crimes and are victims of SA and DA. Most men in prison are imprisoned for SA, DA and other violent crimes. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

Saying no-one with a penis belongs in the female estate is effectively the same as saying only transwomen who have had their penis removed can be in the female estate. Which is then portrayed as a demand that said transwomen sterilise themselves before they can be transferred to the female estate/treated as women. Which then becomes a human rights issue because forcing someone to sterilise themselves = obviously bad.
Much easier to say there is a woman's prison for women and a mans prison for men. A separate wing/prison/space for transwomen who would be vulnerable in the general male population.