Disclosure of non binary pronouns leads to less favourable employer response

I have to resent the association with Brig

I have been very low key GC in work, mostly on defence (away with your compulsory pronouns) rather than offence. If anyone came poking about, it wouldn't be too hard to figure out I am a gender heretic. I am pretty senior tho, well regarded and been here forever so not the easiest of targets.

If it came to it, if they came at my neurodiverse team mates, I would totally go into bat for them. Their neuro diversity actually directly enhances my team, brings value in ways that others don't. One of the silver linings of covid was that i had the flexibility to be able to make adjustments that allowed neurodiverse team members to really flourish. I wont have that messed with, without a fight.

To be honest, like most posters here, I'd assume that they'd be a nightmare to work with. Too much drama and the possibility of being sued for acting reasonably and normally.

If a pronoun CV came my way, unless it was outstandingly better than the others, I'd choose one or more with similar qualifications and abilities.

It's a challenge @Poinsettiasarevile . It is amazing how this new oppression has elbowed it's way to the top trampling over sex-based rights and the rights of people with disabilities.

SabrinaThwaite · Yesterday 23:22

+ + I typed hemisexual into Google, hoping that you were just taking the piss but no, it's a thing.... + +

I thought it was some strange perversion involving American muscle cars?

Chevy Big Block Gender now?

What a great post.
The whole "bring your whole self" as opposed to "bring your professional self" to work is doing a massive disservice - especially to the young. As is evidenced daily, NB, trans and all the other identities appears to revolve around having an unhealthy obsession with themselves and focusing on controlling the reactions of everyone else. No wonder people are starting to give them a swerve.
As an employer it's completely logical to avoid an applicant demonstrating this. It's such a shame as the learning you get as a young worker from having to adapt to a workplace, different standards, a hierarchy etc is immense. I know there's a lot of evidence that those caught up in this ideology are limiting their dating pool - it will be awful for them if it also affects their employment opportunities.

This has been turning around in my head all morning. I am GC to the hilt, but I don't believe in bringing your whole self to work, i believe in bringing only your professional self in. I love working with people of all different stripes, i have learned this builds the most capable and adaptable teams.

However working with a diverse range of people really means boundaries and mutual respect are incredibly important. I have worked hard to instill this in my teams. I really would be worried that an enby coming in expecting team mates to change how they use language would trample all over those boundaries and does not show mutual respect.

Personally, i think NB is bollocks, but i would happily use preferred pronouns (when i remember to). But my lovely autistic colleague I think would really struggle. She spoke to me a while ago worried that pronouns would become compulsory (i said over my dead body) and she did say she just cant lie and worries it would get her into trouble if she had to use the wrong pronouns for someone. I said we would cross that bridge if and when (as did our useless HR dept).

She started as one of my analysts, and only ever volunteered an opinion if it involved data. It has taken me 2 years of coaching to get her to be more vocal on other things, and she is so frickin astute, brings massive value to the team.

However she knows she struggles to understand unwritten rules and is always scared of breaking them. Bring in the illogical presence of an enby, and i think she would shrink back into her data. I just dont know how i would handle this as a manager.

But then I suppose it might work as a signal to someone that was actively looking to hire someone with those beliefs.

If you look at Glassdoor for places like Pink News etc, they don't look to be nice places to work, culture of bullying etc.

Some people identify as progressive and good.

I like to think myself open and accepting (plus I have a child who IDs as trans) so I know I think about these issues more than most.

I cannot see any positive reason for announcing one's pronouns whether they are obvious (she/her for someone with a female name) or unusual. Even the kindest explanation I can come up with involves some kind of performative nonsense (check me out I'm super-woke and on the ball). At the more cynical end it just screams "I'm an attention seeker who will require very special treatment". Neither of these feel like a win in an employment context.

My main beef with all this nonsense is the blind acceptance of something as progressive and good when a modicum of analysis and thought reveals its nothing of the sort and actually quite damaging in many ways.

Most people will use 'Lama' 'Reverend' 'Holiness' out of politeness if asked. The issue is the expectation. I also question whether when these titles are entirely self identified they have any meaning? Usually a priest/officiant has to have some form of structure/process behind having that title bestowed, I think?

Yes, it's not the possessing of a certain belief system, it's the need to share it and implied in the 'instructive' use of pronouns, the demand/expectation that others must pay lip service to it, too. The equivalent would be a religious believer identifying themself on the application as such and asking you to address them as 'Lama' 'Reverend' 'Holiness' etc.

Pronouns are not protected characteristics. Everyone has pronouns!

Nice, but lacking critical thinking...

But then I suppose it might work as a signal to someone that was actively looking to hire someone with those beliefs.

I wonder what effect putting your star sign in a prominent place on your CV would be. Or writing "May Jesus be with you" in the cover letter. I wouldn't ever want to discriminate against people who were Christians or who believed in astrology or wicca or whatever. But to be honest I would look askance at both of the above examples (whereas I wouldn't if it was mentioned in a way that was relevant to the job. e.g. past experience involved managing a Christian youth camp or something. But if someone went out of their way to write Margaret Kemp DEVOUT CHRISTIAN I would be hmmm

Being self-obsessed as a non-binary person isn't a bug, it's a feature. I don't think you can call yourself non-binary unless you think you're rather special in that you don't think sex-based stereotypes apply to you. If you think you are special in that, don't see how other people can object to them yet remain the sex that they are, then you're spectacularly unempathetic and narcissistic. Who wants to work with someone like that?
BTW loved your post @Poinsettiasarevile, you sound like a great team leader. Diversity of thought is a much better thing to look for in building a team - Matthew Syeds book explains this brilliantly.

I don't support discrimination, on protected characteristics or otherwise. Or making sweeping judgements about groups of people.

I’m involved with a v small independent business. Saw the pronouns on an application but put concerns to one side and hired them. On their very first day they complained about the sex based toilets. Then after spending time and money training them, they blithely left. Frustrating.

When I see it on email profiles that aren’t public sectors I have begun to assume they are usually difficult to work with, just through experience

This one has me pondering. After learning the hard way that hiring lots of mini-mes is a disaster, i have always been really careful to build truly diverse teams. On paper, the team of mini mes would have ticked all the EDI boxes (prob one of the few teams in the org that did) but in practice it was a mess. Got stuff done, but high conflict, too much drama, and not particularly adaptable. When talking about diversity at work I am always very careful to emphasise diversity of thought and experience alongside diversity of personal characteristics.

I have never interviewed an enbie for a role but have worked with quite a few and have been pondering how I might respond. Part of me is thinking, in my experience in work, enbies are without exception attention-seeking trouble-making nightmares, but this view is formed from only a handful of data points and assuming this applies to all enbies is just out right prejudice. (I have the same issues with Lucys, all of them i have ever met in work have been total mares, but doesnt mean they all are)

What worries me most is the impact on existing team members. I have several ND people on my team, one has autism and I strongly suspect is gender critical and i worry could struggle to use preferred pronouns. She would certainly have some views on the logic of being non-binary, which she would be happy to share (she is an amazing bull shit detector, she sees through fancy language and slick presentations to uncover flws in any argument) , but i doubt she would appreciate the risk that doing this might create for her.

Bringing an enbie into my team feels really risky. How do you balance the rights and needs of one protected characteristic (disability) with another i think totally non protected characteristic (do enbies have any legal protection, i know SW have them in the trans umbrella, but that dont mean shit legally). I don't think any HR department in the country has gotten their head around this, and i have no desire to be a test case. So, unless they were the only appointable candidate, i would swerve.

Vinnie when you're feeling manly?

I can't imagine how much of a PITA it would be to employ the nonbinary person I know from a leisure activity, he's constantly correcting people who say he instead of they (he doesn't "present" as anything but male), he has massive mood swings to the point where he is rude and won't talk to you and everyone tiptoes around him. He's always talking about himself. No way would I employ him.

Bliddy hell! 😦

It IS a thing.

I don't understand the "definition", but it's a thing all right . . . 😬

The non-binary person in my workplace is a major PITA, and uses her special status to avoid being reprimanded for playing video games and not actually doing her job.

I don't think the management will be leaping to hire more of the same.