Starmer: "trans-inclusive" conversion therapy ban, "modernise" the GRA, all hate crime to be aggravated offences as part of making every child "proud and confident"

Another memory of 80s rallies - one I hadn't thought about for ages - men (and mostly but women too) singing, 'We are coming to get you Maggie Thatch'. I can't remember the name of the tune now but it's a well known football chant and not a friendly one.

That was 40 years ago. At the time I thought it could be changed but now there's a new generation behaving in just the same way.

I think Mrs Thatcher and gender critical feminists serve a similar function for left wing misogynists - they give them an excuse to express their abhorrent attitudes and still feel they're the good guys.

Anyway, the Conservative party is "packed the rafters" with misogynistics and sex pests, yet people on here still think they are a good voting choice if you are a feminist.

I don’t think they are a good voting choice, I do think Labour, which is also packed to the rafters with misogynists, sex pests and men’s rights activists is a worse choice right now.

Same, Floisme. They don't seem to understand that once trust has gone, it takes work to regain it. Making very vague gestures towards correcting course is not enough.

They need to acknowledge the fact they ejecting women like Karen Ingala Smith - just fucking think about the madness of that for a minute!!! - in favour of men's sexual rights. There needs to be reparation.

Then they need to make cast iron guarantees on women's rights, in crystal clear language.

But they're not going to. That much is very clear.

In terms of a shift, I guess they would argue that Labour outwardly dropping its commitment to self ID is a sign of progress. But then I look more carefully at the wording of that statement, and I see them swerving any discussion about how they envisage the GRC in relation to single sex services, and that endless repetition of 'Let me be clear' when they're being anything but, and all the photo calls with Stonewall while not even letting Labour Women's Declaration have an official place at the conference....

I could go on but really I think the fundamental problem for me is that I just don't trust or respect them any more, and I don't believe any more that they can change. It's sad but can't see any way back from that.

I think we're all expressing the core idea that the fact KIS can't name them is problematic - not for the absence of names but for what it says about the culture.

And, for me, it's the circular problem of no visible action nor culture shift. We see what happens (see Equal Pay, the GRA) when women are told to take things on trust and deceived as to others having our best interests at heart.

Nullius in verba.

Trust but verify.

Yes it was shocking, and it's a major regret that I didn't walk away. But I think we kidded ourselves we could change the culture from within. Sounds familiar?

'"Sexist abuse such as bitch, cow and other less printable epithets make many women trade unionists feel they are outsiders in a movement that has such feelings of hatred towards Thatcher purely as a woman," wrote Fightback for Women's Rights, a group associated with the Labour Party, in an open letter in 1980.'

https://www.salon.com/2013/04/08/thatcher_a_female_icon_but_not_a_feminist_one/

Holy fuck! Genuinely shocked.

I agree she shouldn't be obliged to name them - it's the reason why she doesn't that I find quite upsetting. And it's nothing to do with trustworthyness.

The fact that she can't name them means that I have no confidence these unnamed people will be true to whatever words they're giving KIS.

We're certainly not seeing any actions, are we?

Yes I think there are.

Like I said, it really got to me to me how in that article, KIS doesn't dare name the people she's working with in the party. That is not a healthy place to be.

He's been told that effective communication involves making eye contact (and on video that means imagining the camera is a person) and smiling.

An insight into his usual in-person communication style might be interesting for comparison.

I think there are many who still feel the same.

I remember going to rallies in the 80s and Labour party members proudly wearing badges saying, 'Ditch the bitch' and 'Britain's first women Prime Minister - and the last.'

I wish I'd walked away there and then.

Oh god. I hadn't actually watched the vid until now. What is with the BIG STAREY EYES AND <QUICK FAKE BARING OF TEETH IN APPROXIMATION OF 'SMILE'>?

This man seems on the verge of ... something.

I guess the fact they've never had a woman leader probably should tell us something.

Agreed. The ongoing misogyny over decades when unions, councils (Labour run ones as well), everyone was lined up to deny these women justice, equality, equal pay, or even respect. It's baked in.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4998283-dying-without-ever-getting-their-historic-equal-pay

I've come round to believing this is a battle we're never going to win with Labour. I don't think this is a blip - I think the attitude to women is baked in.

Agree. I don't think they have the capacity to understand the issue. It's bloody weird. It's like they have a blind spot when it comes to women that they are just not capable of seeing past.

Every BIG BUSINESS CONFERENCE needs a squad of graphic facilitators and poets.

And inflatable dinosaur stations adjacent to the defibrillators.

Thanks for the link @WaterHound - I knew she was back in the Labour Party but I hadn't seen that. I lost track of how many times she had to re-apply - was it 5?

That article says a lot of things I'd have probably said myself not that long ago. The difference is that I've come round to believing this is a battle we're never going to win with Labour. I don't think this is a blip - I think the attitude to women is baked in.

The fact that KIS talks about women and some men 'working behind the scenes' - but doesn't name any, says it all for me. We all know why they have to stay invisible.

It's not quite like turkeys voting for Christmas because of some nice corn, more like Christmas is coming your heads ARE coming off would like a nice final meal before it happens

What are Labour going to do for all the women in a demonstrably worse position after 14 years of the Tories? What have they said they'll do? You seem to be assuming that Labour will improve things so it's worth risking women's rights to have those improvements, but what are you basing that on? They're offering nothing, just more of what we've got now, with added misogyny.

And again, it's no posters here's fault that Labour would rather pander to the TQ+ than capitalise on the concerns of women. It'd be quite easy for them to do, and yet they don't, why is that?

Why don't you get that you are the turkey voting for Xmas, by trusting Labour? As PP astutely said, Labour are coasting on brand recognition. To stretch your analogy, you think women who disagree with you are being seduced by 'the farmer promising he'd throw them some nice corn'; well Labour are promising to take the little bit of corn I've got, and give it to foxes wearing turkey outfits. This should be an open goal for Labour, and it is Labour who are choosing not to take it.

How does that work then? It says "to or from" trans. Therapists and parents can equally be convicted for child says I'm trans, BANG they are transitioned

no I dont think thats right at all, it would be more like

child says they are trans, parents/ therapist says ‘are you sure’ = conversion therapy

child says they are trans, parents/therapist says ‘fine’ = no conversion therapy

child says they are unhappy with their life, depressed, questioning their sexuality, might be gay, parents/therapist says ‘you may be trans ‘ = conversion therapy

Who was the Labour MP who went on about ‘block all terfs’

Kate Osborne, I think. Which is concerning as she's on the Women and Equalities Committee.