Brighton shows why you shouldn’t vote Labour - Julie Burchill (and a mention of IamSarah)

Quite. You’d think we wims would be more grateful for being told we’re wrong, wouldn’t you?

No need to think critically, ladies, in fact no need to think or reason at all. Just fall into line.

But what do you think of the article?

For me, where something is published comes low down the list of what is important about it.

First - is it a good article, and do I agree with it or think it makes some good points?

Second - who wrote it? There are some people writing on this who I might think are trying to make points I disagree with. Julie Burchill isn't one of them.

Third - where it was published. Actually I don't care at all about this. If the first two points indicate that it's a worthwhile article, I don't care where it's published.

Yes indeed! Keep your head down, stay quiet, do as you’re told.

If you think the editors of the Spectators give two shiny shits about women's rights, you're very, very mistaken.

Ah, yes. The wims of FWR are proverbed for their inability to consider matters in the round and are readily deceived. The concept of nuance is so foreign that we are forever grateful to those who admonish us about it although it seems that there is a failure of learning.

I can only be grateful for the persistence of those who seek to scold us in the error of our ways. If we ever end up in a Goldsmith Gulag for re-education, I can't promise that coercion will make me a better student but at least some people will know that they tried to divert me from that path.

I would describe it as hating proscribed beliefs/opinions.

I don’t understand why freedom to think variously- which should be middle ground- has become ‘right wing’.

The existence of the actual extreme right seems to have been forgotten in favour of attacking centre for being insufficiently left.

I can read an article from any media outlet and I either think it's good or I don't. I've read plenty of articles by people I don't agree with on anything else.

@OldCrone yes, that's my point. I've answered that question further down.
What I can't do is be ok with a publication because I agree with its view on one single point when I find their stance on most other points entirely objectionable.
It's left me newspaper-less and I don't know who to vote for. I need to weigh up the less of a few competing 'evils'.
What I will never do is ever buy the Spectator nor vote Tory.
If you think the editors of the Spectators give two shiny shits about women's rights, you're very, very mistaken. They just hate 'wokism' (god I hate that word) and trans people more than they hate feminism.

Diversity of ideas is sadly more of a Tory thing than something that Labour, SNP or Plaid Cymru subscribe to.

I will be a single issue voter for the next election. I will vote for the party that are likely to cause the least damage to my daughters rights - even if they don't really care about girls or women. We are on the verge of losing our rights and never getting them back. For me, our rights underpin everything else.

But if we put self ID/Gender Ideology/Women's rights to one side for a moment - what evidence have people seen that Labour are the party with the policies and appetite to sort everything else out? I don't understand why people have so much faith in them.

So which paper(s) do you read? I'm pretty sure that every single publication has someone who writes (or has written) for it who you would find objectionable.

Do you recognise we are where we are due to Labour laws?

And that they are ideologically aligned to genderism and challenge will dissolve if they get in

If you don’t think that’s the case why not? Who are you relying on?

'Ad locum' is excellent. Or what about 'platform' - 'ad suggestum'?

@NecessaryScene 'ad locum' is genius - and also a very astute observation.

Plus a touch of Latin always improves a day.

Thank you for your excellent post RayonSunrise
exactly right. I feel like a Cassandra endlessly posting ‘but what have the Tories actually DONE, in law, to support or even further promote women’s rights?’Rather than just said in some newspaper soundbites?’ And being told as if this was an answer, that we are lucky we don’t have a Labour government.

.. the only answer I can think of is: the Tories have given us the £5 GRC.

The Tories were confident that self ID was right, they ignored women’s protests and wanted to bring in self ID. We were a hair’s breadth away from getting it in the UK until more powerful figures than us (at that time mostly women who wouldn’t have been Tory voters anyway) must influenced them.

I don’t believe that any major UK party will try making that specific legal change now in the next few years because of the gathering opposition there has been to it.. too much sunlight and fresh air and pink leggings in the media.. but there is also a gathering backlash of people who very committed to making self ID happen.

I think the inertia on this will be calculated by main political parties in fact, it suits them to have activists not looking at government failures but endlessly fighting with each other instead. Keeping the threat of misogynistic gender identity-friendly policies dangling over women keeps us in our place if we start to ask governments for ‘too much’. In the same way dangling the distant promise in front of genderists that it will all happen in future, just wait it out and bide your time for the TERFs to move on to the next thing, also keeps the pro self ID camp voting for major parties, not scrutinising governments in favour of social media scrapping, and not publicly asking for ‘too much’… it’s very convenient isn’t it.

So definitely this issue is going to be the ongoing fight of our lifetimes whoever is in power.

So no, I’m not voting Tory because I don’t believe in food banks becoming essential to avoid starvation, my family and too many people I know are suffering daily from public services like the NHS, schools and local councils being starved of funds from central government. And i think ingrained child poverty is not inevitable. And we are all suffering from high energy prices and a housing crisis and an environment emergency left untackled. I mean, just to name a few. Oh and Brexit! And its social division and colossal waste of taxpayer money and its loss of opportunity and the tangible things that really affect individuals I know like constant medicine shortages.

Cameron, May, Johnson, Truss and Sunak have all been terrible for the country in different ways., and personally I believe we can’t afford more of the the same from the Tories. I can’t vote to reward it. The Tories don’t love gender critical women back. I am quite sure of that. This is just a convenient culture war for them. As it is with other potential governments. So vote how you want.

Perhaps voting according to individual MP rather than party allegiance is increasingly a good idea. Diversity of ideas within a political party is probably healthy to an extent.

This doesn't necessarily help much, depending on local candidates...

@Alltheprettyseahorses I also don't like Owen Jones.

The left has entirely abandoned you though. I’m happily centre left. I’ve got a coffee coated with “fuck the tories” written on it and a badge saying “never kissed a Tory”. I was born in 1978 and brought up to hate them.

but …. The left is entirely ideologically captured by this fantasy which harms children, women and society (and men for that matter). There is no recourse except to tell those on the left they will lose us until this is addressed fairly. I wrote to Keni and told her this is a vote winner for me and I’d never had said that 5 years ago.

this is the ideologues fault. The left takes us for granted at its peril.

I agree .

I resemble that remark! On a good day, I waddle.

Julie B will be loving this thread! This is why she writes and is particularly good at it. Thank goodness for her.

Labour are so pathetic on this issue but at least they won't cause as much endless misery to women through austerity, allowing Brexit, trashing the economy especially impacting the poorest especially in jobs over represented by women, destroying the NHS, running our schools and on and on.

I would be pleased to be wrong and await the manifesto but, afaict, Labour

• is committed to continuing austerity
• will do nothing to walk back Brexit
• was or is leading councils who fought to deny women back payments for dragging out the equal pay dispute
• responsible for the state of the NHS in Wales…

Alternatively, google Owen Jones.

Well, quite, seahorses.

Why is the answer always for women to shut up, rather than Labour to just STOP BEING FUCKING USELESS on this issue?

Why are people getting upset because Labour's massive flaws are being exposed? What will they do when political discussion turns from violent anti-woman activism to how their economic policy is no different from that of the Tories and how they will in fact undertake even worse crackdowns on disability benefits? Tribalism is a terrible thing. It's a grotty political party, not a footie team or a pop star - it's really strange to get upset because the truth isn't being hidden. Are we all supposed to lie because your identity and sense of self depends on being perceived as left wing even though the basis for your belief in that ie unquestioning universal adherence to a political party is fundamentally wrong? Myself, I'm spoiling my ballot.

I agree with every word of this.

I too want to vote anything but Tory. On being asked for their position on women's rights and self-ID, the Lib Dem candidate made vaguely realistic noises but made it clear she would toe the party line; the Labour candidate didn't deign to respond.

The Tory MP is responsive, firmly GC and actually takes action.

It's a very blue constituency so my vote counts for basically nothing anyway, but for me it's either spoil the ballot or opt for the choice that will stand up for women.