Year 8 trans child - in secret

I haven’t the time to google it either. I’m not sure why you’re expecting me to do research for you! I don’t have a need to convince you of the history; I can’t see much point spending time going back over the history of how these diagnoses developed myself. If you want to research the history do; if you don’t want to don’t!

When you've googled and found it you can post it here. I'm not going to waste my time searching for something that may not exist - I've only got your word for it that it does, and you can't seem to find it. Let me know when you do.

Off the top of my head I can’t find anything, but if you can find records of the discussions that took place over the years as the DSM and ICD gender incongruence / gender dysphoria / gender identity disorder diagnostic categories evolved you should find discussions about including intersex people. Googling the history of those diagnoses may find things. Historically the mental aspect was considered separately for trans and intersex people, but it isn’t anymore.

Can you link to a source for that statement?

It’s the same diagnosis used for both these days. In the past it wasn’t, but medicine has over time realised that the gender identity issues that trans and intersex people face are the same, and it’s one diagnosis now.

make-believe or fantasy play, toys, games, or activities and playmates that are typical of the experienced gender rather than the assigned sex.

Why this is seen as an indication of any sort of medical condition is beyond me.

https://icd.who.int/browse11/l-m/en#/http%3a%2f%2fid.who.int%2ficd%2fentity%2f344733949

I can't see anything about DSDs here.

Gender incongruence of childhood is characterised by a marked incongruence between an individual’s experienced/expressed gender and the assigned sex in pre-pubertal children. It includes a strong desire to be a different gender than the assigned sex; a strong dislike on the child’s part of his or her sexual anatomy or anticipated secondary sex characteristics and/or a strong desire for the primary and/or anticipated secondary sex characteristics that match the experienced gender; and make-believe or fantasy play, toys, games, or activities and playmates that are typical of the experienced gender rather than the assigned sex. The incongruence must have persisted for about 2 years. Gender variant behaviour and preferences alone are not a basis for assigning the diagnosis.

As has been noted before, it is very similar to Body Integrity Dysphoria.

Body integrity dysphoria is characterised by an intense and persistent desire to become physically disabled in a significant way (e.g. major limb amputee, paraplegic, blind), with onset by early adolescence accompanied by persistent discomfort, or intense feelings of inappropriateness concerning current non-disabled body configuration. The desire to become physically disabled results in harmful consequences, as manifested by either the preoccupation with the desire (including time spent pretending to be disabled) significantly interfering with productivity, with leisure activities, or with social functioning (e.g. person is unwilling to have a close relationships because it would make it difficult to pretend) or by attempts to actually become disabled have resulted in the person putting his or her health or life in significant jeopardy. The disturbance is not better accounted for by another mental, behavioural or neurodevelopmental disorder, by a Disease of the Nervous System or by another medical condition, or by Malingering.

Should people with this condition be helped to become disabled?

It’s a medical diagnosis. It’s based on assigned sex. That’s just how it is.

"Assigned sex"?

Sex isn't "assigned". It is identified.

A societal role may be defined. That's a different thing altogether.

You can flout society's expectations of your sex, but you can't change your sex.

Ideally you’d want people to feel they needed as little medical intervention as possible though, and without society pressuring them into body modification.

It’s not quite as simple as that: Gender incongruence is unhappiness with assigned sex. It also covers people with developmental variations, where a societal sex role has been chosen for them when they were young, but they are unhappy with it. People can choose which societal category to live in (and sometimes have to consciously choose), even if they can’t choose how they developed. It’s the same medical diagnosis in ICD11 (where gender incongruence is defined) for trans and intersex people.

Discussions like this are so important as the realisation of what has actually been told to children emerge. So many parents have been unaware of the extreme levels of capture in schools, youth services, children's charities, the DfE etc by the trans lobby. We need to be able to talk, think, reflect and work out how to protect and support all of our children so that they can grow up safely and free from external age inappropriate pressures.

You're very welcome. Thanks for the encouragement.

Indeed so.

If my child is unhappy with the size of her feet, it would be wrong of me to help her/him facilitate the cutting-off of toes. And so on ...

I agree.

Indeed. I suspected the same.

"You answered your own question right at the beginning. That pretty much is the definition of gender incongruence".

Except most children struggle with their pubertal bodies during childhood / adolescence, as parents and those who work with children know. Which is why those adults who rush in to persuade children that their bodies must be wrong and can be fixed by "changing sex" are so hazardous to children. Framing the natural process of mind / body development /alignment as having a faulty body is unforgivable.

That's why proponents of this ideology should not be allowed to sell this nonsense to children below the age of consent.

Gender incongruence is simply unhappiness about one's sex?

The treatment for this should then be to try to reconcile the person with their sex. Because sex can't be changed, and efforts to change the body to resemble the opposite sex, and try to convince the rest of the world that the person has changed sex, are bound to fail.

“But what exactly is this 'gender incongruence'?
**
To me it looks nothing more than a kind of unhappiness (albeit often extreme) at one's sex.”

You answered your own question right at the beginning. That pretty much is the definition of gender incongruence.

I'm confused now, Butterfly. Are you now saying that your problems at school were because you were gay? Section 28 was about homosexuality.

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1988/9/section/28/enacted

There's nothing in there about transsexualism/transgenderism.

Negeme, you’ve just expressed everything I’ve been trying to get my head round so eloquently. Thank you.

@ButterflyHatched: "Discomfort at bodily changes with puberty is definitely a component of gender incongruence. That's...well, that's kind of the point?"

OK. But what exactly is this 'gender incongruence'?

To me it looks nothing more than a kind of unhappiness (albeit often extreme) at one's sex.

I have tried, but failed, to make sense of the notion of 'gender' as something one can have or be that allows it to be congruent or incongruent with aspects of oneself (as a particular sex or anything else). The notion of gender - or gender identity - as something, not coterminous with sex, that one can have, or be, rather than as just a set of (often harmful) stereotypes ... such a notion is one I have yet to see or hear coherently explained.

This being so, of course I believe the young person in question is making a mistake, one he needs help in coming to terms with, and hopefully overcoming. A fortiori I believe it simply wrong to have others (children as well as adults) collude in the maintenance of the mistake this child is making: bad for the child as well as others involved.

Of course this belief entails that you, too, Butterfly, have made/make a similar mistake with respect to yourself. (Nevertheless you still exist as a trans person: it just seems to me you are mistaken in thoughts about what this amounts to and so to your description of yourself - particularly with regard to what sex you are.) However ...

... Perhaps it's me that's wrong here. If you think I am, perhaps you can help me see where I'm going wrong by explaining what 'gender incongruence' means. What is gender incongruence in a boy, other than unhappiness that he is a boy? What is gender incongruence in a girl other than unhappiness that she is a girl?

People make mistakes about themselves all the time. That you did so, @ButterflyHatched, should not be seen as a reason to collude in another's similar sad error. Tough, I know. But there it is.

If you believe people are transitioning because of homophobia then how do you account for the strong representation of bisexuals amongst the trans population? It doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

There are multiple often very different pathways to transition, including homophobia and also others. Sasha and Stella on "Gender A Wider Lens" describe a different pathway that's common for the burgeoning number of teen girls - "From bi to pan to trans". It's even an episode title and you can find the whole thing on YouTube.

You might also look at the three-way relationship between autism, transgender, and not having a strong sexuality or sexual orientation as described by Az Hakeem.

(You raised the question so I suppose you're interested in the answers)

Acceptance that sex can’t be changed but for some presenting in a certain way is more appropriate for them.

This.

Break the gender stereotypes - don't keep enforcing them. Reassure children that what they are is fine. You are an effeminate boy/ butch girl - nothing wrong with that - you are perfect just as you are, can wear what you want/ present how you wish - and that is FINE.

But sex - your chromosomally-determined, biological, identifiable SEX - that doesn't change. You can take hormones, have surgery, torture and manipulate your body however you want - but you DO NOT CHANGE SEX.

Accept yourself as the sex you are, and work with it to present as a way you feel comfortable. For some this may require more than just looking like a stereotype of the opposite sex - some may feel that they do need surgery etc, and that's fine, as long as everyone is aware realise that it is all appearance, and not reality.

If we keep teaching children that their trans peers are aberrations to be shamed, decried and hounded out of public life then of course they'll keep acting like this.

Im going to address this as it’s, yet again, shamelessly misinterpreting the position of most posters and how schools are dealing with trans pupils in a hyperbolic way designed to apply the emotional thumbscrews.

Schools are NOT treating trans children as “abominations” or trying to “hound them out of public life” - schools are doing their best with confusing information and pressure from parents, the eir own staff and organisations with an agenda. The result is quite often schools get it wrong.

But schools SHOULD be looking after ALL children. That is literally in all
our job descriptions and contracts. It’s not about prioritising some children at the expense of others, it’s about balancing need.

TRAd and charities like Stonewall and Mermaids- who schools turn to for advice- are saying secrets must be kept, truth must be denied, reality must be ignored.

Why are we all not trying to find a way where children accept differences, that a boy may present as a girl and may want to be a girl. Start from there and treat EVERYONE with kindness, respect and compromise if needed. If a trans girl can’t change with the boys then separate space. Zero tolerance of all bullying. Acceptance that sex can’t be changed but for some presenting in a certain way is more appropriate for them.

I can’t say things would be better had we gone down this path but I know lying to everyone won’t result in a Hallmark movie when nature does its thing and outs these kids. I know there’s less chance of living with a secret if we support openness and there’s true inclusion if girls are allowed to be treated as humans not resources.