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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Year 8 trans child - in secret

496 replies

WoollyMammoth1 · 27/01/2024 14:48

The recent news article about the trans child at a primary school made me think of sharing a similar story at my DD school, big difference being is that's a secondary school.
DD is in year 8, there's a child in her year that identifies as a girl but is a boy. No one at school, besides staff knows, DD doesn't know either as whilst I feel bad withholding the information, I don't want her to keep this secret at school.

The child has a sibling at the school, who calls him by his girl name. They change in the disabled changing room and use the disabled toilet.

I found out through social media, the parent came up as a possible contact, their profile is open and there were many pictures of her children when younger making it very clear. Absolutely no doubt.

When I first found out, I researched and found there is little I can do. The child's rights seem to trump all others.

DD and the child started building a friendship last year, but this went sour. Which I am glad for considering the circumstances.

My issue here is the deceit and secrecy. Non of the year group know the child is a boy which is such an obvious safeguarding risk, and once they find out they'll feel betrayed. Any friendships are based on a lie. And I feel like I am condoning the situation by not saying anything, esp to DD.

The child lives further from school then most other kids, likely to try and ensure there were no other children at the school that might know them.

It feels wrong to keep things quiet, esp for my daughters, and other girls in her year's sake, so hoping that someone here may have some good ideas in where to go from here.

(Long term Mumsnetter, name changed for this post)

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Hepwo · 19/02/2024 23:38

So we can't refer to any human on the planet as a male or female, boy or girl, man or woman, without their permission?

Hepwo · 19/02/2024 23:36

Malicious = speaking about someone with intent to harm them.

How does it harm a boy to say he's a boy?

GreenYoshi12 · 19/02/2024 23:35

Hepwo · 19/02/2024 23:32

It's is malicious to tell someone a secret about another without their consent ie: ‘they’re a boy’

When we have a scan or amniocentesis is it malicious?

When does it become a malicious act? At what point? Are all family members malicious for knowing?

Are my eyes malicious? Do I need consent when I point to someone and say "can you ask that man if he wants milk in his tea"?

Not malicious if you know something but don’t tell anyone else without permission.
and I think ‘NO’ for the last 3 questions is applicable
I’m backing out of this conversation now

Hepwo · 19/02/2024 23:34

It’s not if the boy has said that themselves. Just don’t out someone for how they identify.

Eh?

My eyesight is fine but I can't see words this boy might have said about himself.

GreenYoshi12 · 19/02/2024 23:34

Hepwo · 19/02/2024 23:32

It's is malicious to tell someone a secret about another without their consent ie: ‘they’re a boy’

When we have a scan or amniocentesis is it malicious?

When does it become a malicious act? At what point? Are all family members malicious for knowing?

Are my eyes malicious? Do I need consent when I point to someone and say "can you ask that man if he wants milk in his tea"?

Malicious = speaking about someone with intent to harm them.

GreenYoshi12 · 19/02/2024 23:33

OldCrone · 19/02/2024 23:29

I have. They can't explain it either.

I believe it’s inate - you either have it or you don’t and you don’t know what it’s like unless you live it.
Like you don’t understand depression unless you have experienced it.

Hepwo · 19/02/2024 23:32

It's is malicious to tell someone a secret about another without their consent ie: ‘they’re a boy’

When we have a scan or amniocentesis is it malicious?

When does it become a malicious act? At what point? Are all family members malicious for knowing?

Are my eyes malicious? Do I need consent when I point to someone and say "can you ask that man if he wants milk in his tea"?

GreenYoshi12 · 19/02/2024 23:31

Hepwo · 19/02/2024 23:27

Why is it a secret that boys have boys anatomy?

It’s not if the boy has said that themselves. Just don’t out someone for how they identify.
Your doctor analogy - yes you should say that to someone in authority as it is damaging for lots of people as they can cause real damages for peoples lives. A child in primary school saying that they identify as a girl isn’t.
The marriage analogy - again you should tell others that before it can lead to emotional and financial harm. Which, again, is not applicable in this situation.
Also - in both examples they are ADULTS these are CHILDREN.

OldCrone · 19/02/2024 23:29

GreenYoshi12 · 19/02/2024 23:25

Once again, I don’t know as I am not trans. How about you ask someone who is?

I have. They can't explain it either.

Hepwo · 19/02/2024 23:27

Why is it a secret that boys have boys anatomy?

GreenYoshi12 · 19/02/2024 23:25

OldCrone · 19/02/2024 23:14

Can you answer my question about gender identity? What are they aligning with? Stereotypes? Or are they aligning with having the genitalia of the opposite sex? Or something else?

What is gender identity and what is the relationship between gender identity and sex?

Once again, I don’t know as I am not trans. How about you ask someone who is?

Hepwo · 19/02/2024 23:25

If it's just anatomy what is the problem with parents sharing information about a child having boys anatomy?

Hepwo · 19/02/2024 23:23

Hepwo · 19/02/2024 23:13

So it's just anatomy to you but you decide to bring up genitalia and tell posters here that we have an unhealthy obsession.

Despite telling us that you only discuss periods with male family members.

How did you know that they were male?

Correction, it was old crone who described the unhealthy obsession with genitalia as emanating from gender explainers here.

OldCrone · 19/02/2024 23:14

GreenYoshi12 · 19/02/2024 23:04

No I don’t think the children are - it’s the adults like you who are making this out to be bigger than what it actually is.

Can you answer my question about gender identity? What are they aligning with? Stereotypes? Or are they aligning with having the genitalia of the opposite sex? Or something else?

What is gender identity and what is the relationship between gender identity and sex?

Hepwo · 19/02/2024 23:13

So it's just anatomy to you but you decide to bring up genitalia and tell posters here that we have an unhealthy obsession.

Despite telling us that you only discuss periods with male family members.

How did you know that they were male?

Hepwo · 19/02/2024 23:11

I don’t know about you but I’ve never spoken to any female friends about my periods - I’ve spoken about periods in front of males in my family and it was no issue. It’s anatomy.

You also said this.

OldCrone · 19/02/2024 23:11

GreenYoshi12 · 19/02/2024 23:03

No - other people can know that but if the person themselves tells others. It is malicious to tell someone a secret about another without their consent ie: ‘they’re a boy’
You can be aware about someone’s sex without telling other people that - like you know what you’re getting your child for Christmas but not telling them what they’re getting before the day.

So another example would be that if I discovered that the new 'doctor' at my local surgery wasn't actually qualified but just identified as a doctor, it would be malicious to 'out' them as unqualified.

Or if I discovered that the man my friend was about to marry was already married (and not divorced), it would be malicious to 'out' him to her before the wedding.

Am I getting the hang of this?

Hepwo · 19/02/2024 23:09

GreenYoshi12 · 19/02/2024 23:04

No I don’t think the children are - it’s the adults like you who are making this out to be bigger than what it actually is.

You brought up genitalia.

Hepwo · 19/02/2024 23:06

GreenYoshi12 · 19/02/2024 23:03

No - other people can know that but if the person themselves tells others. It is malicious to tell someone a secret about another without their consent ie: ‘they’re a boy’
You can be aware about someone’s sex without telling other people that - like you know what you’re getting your child for Christmas but not telling them what they’re getting before the day.

Blimey. Christmas present analogies.

GreenYoshi12 · 19/02/2024 23:04

OldCrone · 19/02/2024 23:03

So they feel more comfortable pretending that they have the genitalia of the opposite sex?

Gender identity seems to be something different. What are they aligning with? Stereotypes? Or are they aligning with having the genitalia of the opposite sex?

All this seems to be a rather unhealthy obsession with genitalia, particularly as we're talking about quite young children. Are young children now really this focused on genitalia?

No I don’t think the children are - it’s the adults like you who are making this out to be bigger than what it actually is.

GreenYoshi12 · 19/02/2024 23:03

Hepwo · 19/02/2024 22:58

So a boy is more comfortable as a girl only if no-one knows he's a boy? Obviously a large number of people do know he's a boy, not least his parents. But any one who is aware he's a boy is "outing" him?

How does this actually work in reality?

No - other people can know that but if the person themselves tells others. It is malicious to tell someone a secret about another without their consent ie: ‘they’re a boy’
You can be aware about someone’s sex without telling other people that - like you know what you’re getting your child for Christmas but not telling them what they’re getting before the day.

OldCrone · 19/02/2024 23:03

GreenYoshi12 · 19/02/2024 22:56

They feel more comfortable identifying as the opposite gender to the genitalia that they have. I don’t know what this is like and how the thoughts work as I am not trans myself.
Gender identity is the identity they feel and the closeness to a specific gender that they believe they align with.

So they feel more comfortable pretending that they have the genitalia of the opposite sex?

Gender identity seems to be something different. What are they aligning with? Stereotypes? Or are they aligning with having the genitalia of the opposite sex?

All this seems to be a rather unhealthy obsession with genitalia, particularly as we're talking about quite young children. Are young children now really this focused on genitalia?

Cameraclick · 19/02/2024 22:59

How does this work in regards to things like swimming lessons and residential trips? I don’t give a monkeys how a 12 year old boy is presenting, I wouldn’t want them sleeping in the same room as my 12 yo girl who is oblivious to the fact they are sharing with a biological boy.

it’s really unfair on the child too who must be panicked now puberty is setting in about how to keep this secret.

Hepwo · 19/02/2024 22:58

GreenYoshi12 · 19/02/2024 22:50

I answered your last question.
‘they are trans’ is someone who is trans. Either a boy being more comfortable as a girl or a girl being more comfortable as a boy.

online the definition of ‘trans’ is:

denoting or relating to a person whose gender identity does not correspond with the sex registered for them at birth; transgender.

So a boy is more comfortable as a girl only if no-one knows he's a boy? Obviously a large number of people do know he's a boy, not least his parents. But any one who is aware he's a boy is "outing" him?

How does this actually work in reality?

GreenYoshi12 · 19/02/2024 22:56

OldCrone · 19/02/2024 22:54

Either a boy being more comfortable as a girl or a girl being more comfortable as a boy.

Can you explain what this means?

And a definition of 'gender identity' would be useful, too.

Edited

They feel more comfortable identifying as the opposite gender to the genitalia that they have. I don’t know what this is like and how the thoughts work as I am not trans myself.
Gender identity is the identity they feel and the closeness to a specific gender that they believe they align with.