Thank you: Debbie Hayton in the Mail

He was also under the impression that the size of a woman's breasts denote her social standing amongst her peers. And that bigger breasted women are higher up the social hierarchy.

WTAF?!? That’s insane. It’s a very male perspective on what women’s lives are about.

I can read articles written by other types of addicts (like drink and drug) and respect the content…I don't go around and say "I don't care about your experience I only want to hear your wife's opinion on it".

My life has been profoundly influenced by other people's addictions.

I often wish we heard more from families about the impact of addictions on them. It would help to have an evidence-base so people can make informed judgments on the social push to #BeKind and endlessly supportive no matter what the cost or impact on others.

Victim impact in a recent court hearing. (Very sensitive topic: mother whose addiction is argued to have underpinned her tolerance of SA of her child and who has encouraged them to ask for probation for the abuser because she wants him home, paying the bills.)

And my point was less about the credentials of people who write words that other people pay to read, and more that it is they who control the narrative. As a response to bonfire ladies post about wanting the narrative to be controlled.

Obviously I agree with the narrative in Helen's case and disagree with it in Debbie's. But that wasn't the point I was making.

There is that of course!

The salient point, for me, would be the message that Hayton is putting across.

It's really not much of a commitment to say transwomen are men. Everyone knows that. It's not news.

Eddie Izzard says it every time he wants a male role.

What is news is a) that AGP is quite widespread and is the driving force behind transactivism. And b) that it's a result of watching sissy porn and that subjugated women are required for it to exist.

When you look at other AGP men quite happy to say that a woman is someone with blank, blank eyes and an expectant asshole or that being treated like a piece of meat is hot, that's a world away from the impression that Debbie Hayton wants to give.

One crucial difference is that Helen Joyce does not have an ex partner and children who have been severely negatively affected by the behaviour she is promoting and being paid to talk about.

Helen Joyce writes books about trans that people will pay to read, she also writes articles that people will pay to read.

So what's the difference?

The more voices to come out against the ideology the better (Hayton's message "Trans women are men" is a good one). But I think for many this is just about labels and theoretical matters because they only want certain voices heard.

I can read articles written by other types of addicts (like drink and drug) and respect the content and that the person has given a first-hand account on it. That is not praise and that is not indulging the person. I don't go around and say "I don't care about your experience I only want to hear your wife's opinion on it".

Or a housecoat, like the era of Nora Batty. No ‘tremors’ from that though, I suppose. Mind you, what do I know about the the workings of the associations of such minds? Maybe a house coat would result in ‘phwoar’.

All I took away from that is: "He's alright, Jack"...

Oh well.

Someone needs to let him know women wear shirts and trousers too... and don't feel any less worthy of existing for it.

It's not being handled. No one is handling it.

Indeed.

Clymene transcribed the interview! It’s in 4 parts.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript?reply=100925270

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript?reply=100925438

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript?reply=100925534

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/4053058-Debbie-and-Stephanie-Hayton-interview-transcript?reply=100925597

The navy shoes he's wearing look too small for him. I wonder if the shoes were originally the other way around and someone thought red stilettos on him was a bit 'too much' so they swapped them.

No! 😄

However, it is imperative that this nuance is handled with strong guardrails. If Debbie wants recognition, this can be achieved without it resulting in harm as long as it's handled well.

It's not being handled. No one is handling it.

The only people with any kind of dissent is a handful of women who see through him.

Debbie is writing a book that people will pay to read. And Debbie writes articles that people will pay to read.

Debbie is controlling the entire message.

Even women who totally understand what AGP is, are taken in by him.

Might not have been the best of Photoshoots to let the wife sit there in shoes that were her husbands size though!

We don't know that they would have fitted DH. It's not unusual for DM photos to feature people in horrendously unsuitable outfits that don't fit them.

Might not have been the best of Photoshoots to let the wife sit there in shoes that were her husbands size though!

But not a man who has it!

And in whose interests it is to play it down and sanitise it.

That all depends on how Debbie behaves, what Debbie pushes for and how this is handled.
As a parallel WRT someone with a paraphilia having influence and recognition, Jimmy Saville was knighted and high up in several places (BBC, Broadmoor, Stoke Mandeville) as a result of adults who should have known better either not recognising what was happening or recognising it and not doing anything to mitigate it.
I'm interested in hearing Debbie speak. It adds a nuance to the public discourse that is best being out in the open than driven underground. However, it is imperative that this nuance is handled with strong guardrails. If Debbie wants recognition, this can be achieved without it resulting in harm as long as it's handled well. While known patterns about the dangers of working with people with paraphilias are incredibly important, we don't have a way of looking in Debbie's brain to see specifically what's most important to Debbie in the balance of recognition and gratification. This needs someone with Kemi Badenoch's level of understanding and mandate keeping a very close eye on it all. Whilst the numbers of women (rightly) pointing out the dangers is important, it will be managed, in the places where it matters, as "hateful noise" unless someone is looking at the bigger picture.

I thought the same. She looks so worn down imho; fairly joyless and just a husk left. I’m sure there is a term for a woman who has been left like this due to living with certain types of men.

I wonder if she will ever recover herself? I hope she does. I suspect she would first have to have some sort of respite from the cause of the stress, and then a programme of rehabilitation of some kind.

Seconding everyone who mentions that the DM often lends clothes for photoshoots. I wouldn't read much into the shoes or the styling. (If nothing else, I suspect DH would have preferred a mini-skirt judging by some public appearances.)

Other posters have expressed my thoughts on this much better than I can.

I think a picture is worth a thousand words. The 'now' photograph of him sitting so much taller above his wife, his 'protective' arm circling her shoulder also containing her. Her hand clenched into a semi-fist. And his shoes on her feet.

This is just the latest chapter in his Big Book of MEEEE and I'm sure it's a lucrative one. I'm glad it speaks about this fetish but I don't feel the pity for him that he clearly seeks. I reserve that for his wife and family.

Probably - there is a lot of colour coordination going on there. I wouldn't be surprised if the people who set up these photos have entire wardrobes available, along with pins and stuff to make it look like it fits. Shoes are probably harder to fix.

Someone else has said that the mail often provide clothes for these photo shoots, including shoes. So it could be that.

I'd never heard it before Magdalen Berns. And it's a great saying (albeit probably a bit hackneyed now).

The point is him capitalising on both it and her as a means of upping his cred.

😮

The "mind is so open their brains have fallen out" has been popular since at least the 90s, so I wouldn't have attributed it to any one person.