Thank you: Debbie Hayton in the Mail

It's always interesting to monitor his progressive disclosure. This is the first time he's admitted to porn use I think?

Lol live Rock free Karensalright!

I think you made a clear post & I understand your thinking.

I 100% agree with Datun's deeds not words comment.

A long time ago an older straight feminist said to me "when it comes to feminism listen to lesbians" & I've found it to be good advice. My addition to that is "& when it comes to AGPs listen to transwidows".

So many of the TW I’ve met IRL are fixated on large breasts 🤮

That Debbie Hayton could hold such a ridiculous and distasteful belief about their impact on social standing within female groups alongside them identifying as a scientist would be laughable. When they are teaching teenage girls it’s just revolting.

The openness about porn use and excessive detail about dilation is all very boundary pushing

I try really hard not to think about this aspect of the whole thing, but when you think of things that men can no longer do in the office, they can't brush past the women that bit too close, they can't feel their arse up on the way past the photocopier. They can't objectify women with their page three calendars and stories of strip joints, they can't make sexually suggestive comments to the teenager who had just started their first job ever on reception.

It must be bloody miserable at work now for these blokes. What will they do?

Hmm let me think!

Going to hide under a rock now.

lol! You don't have to do that 😄

All I would say is look at actions, not words.

There is no need to hide anywhere, having other opinions isn't a sin in the way it can be within identity politics. I'm not sure that it's helpful to frame other opinions and women's insights and experiences as a trauma response because you haven't (yet) had similar experiences and don't understand them.

I think it's possible that in time you may come to see for yourself some of the more subtle layers of behaviours and tells of underlying beliefs and attitudes.

It’s clear that Hayton has triggered folk here and that i would not want to disrespect.

I went and did my garden to think about this.

Then searched for what Hayton has said over the years.

I cannot accept that Stephanie is some oppressed woman who does not know her own mind, there is no evidence for that and frankly i find that quite patronising.

Unless you can give me an example i dont know about.

i finally landed on trigonometry 2 years ago and Hayton is full on GC, in my opinion.

Whatever offensive attitudes and doings he has committed in the past, does not negate what he now says.

In trigonometry he accepts firstly his male privilege, and also his acquired privilege as a trans person.

Whilst it would seem from (what my much respected elders in knowledge here say) that he is an utter cunt.

I do not agree.

I am going to but his book and make a judgement on that .

I do not want to sit in an aggrieved trench forever, i want change, from this GI nonsense.

And if Hayton can move the agenda then so be it

Yes it is very annoying that it is a man that does that, who might get heard,

But that i am afraid to say is currently the way that it is.

Going to hide under a rock now.

The thing that gets me is the whole concept of AGP being somehow glossed over whilst simultaneously occupying the front and centre position.

It's really weird.

Wearing women's clothes and being addressed as a woman isthe sexually arousing part.

Where the fuck does Hayton get off in saying, because I'm asking nicely, will you please do all those things. Or because of some victim narrative that, I for one, simply can't see.

Women, children, his colleagues, family, are all being asked to participate in something that gets him off.

At he's completely upfront about it!!

This absolute brass neck and boundary violation is being repurposed as something positive.

It's an extraordinary feat.

What Datun said.

No matter how "reasonable" men like Hayton appear to be they are not part of the solution, in fact quite the opposite.

I would like to hear from his wife too, and maybe one day we will - or a wife in a similar situation.

A transwidow with a prominent ex? I would imagine it’s almost impossible for them to speak out honestly while still with their husbands.

The thing that gets me is the whole concept of AGP being somehow glossed over whilst simultaneously occupying the front and centre position.

It's really weird.

Wearing women's clothes and being addressed as a woman is the sexually arousing part.

Where the fuck does Hayton get off in saying, because I'm asking nicely, will you please do all those things. Or because of some victim narrative that, I for one, simply can't see.

Women, children, his colleagues, family, are all being asked to participate in something that gets him off.

At he's completely upfront about it!!

This absolute brass neck and boundary violation is being repurposed as something positive.

It's an extraordinary feat.

The 'side' that Hayton is on, is Hayton's. Not anyone's here. Women's interests may have things in common with what Hayton sees as Hayton's best interests, but there are places where those interests sharply divide. Hayton's threads here have made clear - pleasantly, nicely, civilly - that when such divides happens, Hayton is the one who will make decisions on women's rights and what Hayton will take and use.

I found it sad in those threads that for those who benefitted from the original, quiet, well hidden trampling of women, the aim is that when boundaries are re established and women's facilities and resources and spaces are returned to women, those 'nice' males will be 'included'.

Which will mean excluding women of course, and wholly disrespects women's right to boundaries and a sex, so it doesn't work and misses the point entirely.

There's money to be made from AGP being "complicated".

Then I'm the woman for them (well my wardrobe is anyway!)

I'm kidding, I don't do rollers.

Many women talk about this pattern of what they subsequently understand as grooming, by Hayton.

I would like to hear from his wife too, and maybe one day we will - or a wife in a similar situation.

I don't know what to think about all this, but I do feel sad for Hayton, not least because he is now caught between two groups of people who want nothing to do with him. Other trans women and transactivists loathe him, and the gender-critical feminists whose side he is now on don't approve of him either. Plus he knows he isn't a woman, yet he can't go back to existing as any kind of normal male because he's had his genitalia removed - which is pretty horrific.

On the 'perceive me as a woman' point, what I find uncomfortable about this is that it's not to prevent someone from killing themself, but in order to feed a sexual fetish. It's like those people who pretend to have broken their legs because they get a kick out of being seen as disabled. It's gross to think that I'm playing along in someone's fantasy. This is the ultimate problem with Hayton confession his AGP - why on earth should us women go along with this shit?

Also, Hayton points out that he wants OTHERS to perceive him as a woman, but my question is...what if others don't want to, or can't? At the moment we are all expected to play along with the charade, and pretend that these men are women. But what if we don't? He can perceive himself as a woman all he likes , but he has already said he needs others to prop up his identity. If everyone refused then transitioning would be pointless. It's exceptionally rare that trainsitioned males reach a point where they flawlessly pass as women.

Totally missing the point but his wife is incredibly beautiful.

There must be some group somewhere who get off on rollers, flowery overalls & wrinkled stockings…

I’d like to think that at some point Stephanie will find her way to Trans Widows Voices.

Two paragraphs I want to bring together as they contain what seems to me to be a paradox:

"Forums for transitioners were one click away from highly sexualised websites that peddled transvestite porn. I immersed myself in this community and soaked up the group-think. No longer did I yearn to be the opposite sex; I thought I really was the opposite sex... Not surprisingly, I became more and more mentally unwell."

”Detransition would reverse that process, and in real life, where sexed bodies matter, I have no wish to do so. I fear a return of the mental health catastrophe that drove me to transition in the first place.”

I suspect he’s still not being completely honest with himself. He’s clear in the first paragraph that his mental health catastrophe occurred because he allowed himself to wander down that mental pathway and got involved with hyper sexualised men encouraging him to embrace a delusion. There’s no reason why the delusion he describes would recur. It’s an excuse, no more, no less.

I’m not sure how much of a sexual kick a man can have after insert correct surgical term starting with c that I am not allowed to use here. Indeed, I understand that is part of the problem with going the whole hog as the surgery actually prevents the desired effect from occurring.

It’s desperately sad though. Poor Stephanie and children. He was probably a fairly decent man who gave into temptation and now everyone else has to live with the results. I hope that, if she wants to, Stephanie can find a way to break free.

If you are reading this, Stephanie, there are many of us who would support you.

Picture the scene: a stranger is trying to find me in a crowded room. Without knowing who I am, they ask for directions from a mutual friend. ‘I’m looking for Debbie Hayton.’
‘Ah, Debbie!’ comes the reply. ‘He is the tall man with the grey hair by the bookcase.’
My friend’s response might have been scientifically accurate, but it would probably not have been much use.
Of course, they could have been told: ‘You see the person over by the bookcase with the grey hair who could be taken for a woman? That’s Debbie.’ But how realistic is that every time I’m pointed out in a crowd?
The simplest reply is, of course, what generally happens: ‘She’s the tall woman with the grey hair…’
Integrity matters — I am just one person and the same person in all contexts, a male transsexual.

Why in this scenario wasnt there an option to refer to him as a TW, or a male transsexual? Why did he think they'd be confusion discribing him as a man?

Remember this is the man who supposedly wants to promote the idea that men cannot become women, but he cannot envisage people seeing him as anything but a woman.

Hayton wants to become known for speaking out about trans issues, but also seemingly doesnt want others to mention that he is trans or a man.

Clearly, ultimate validation of their "womanhood" is different for different men.

Some like:

• Winning medals in women's sporting events
• Getting a job specifically advertised as being for women only, heading a rape crisis centre.
• Being housed in a women's prison whilst awaiting sentencing for rape
• Joining the WI and being featured in their magazine
• Being named "Woman of the Year"
• Being accepted as a sexual partner by a Lesbian/getting called a Lesbian

So it's not really that surprising that for some men the ultimate challenge to be validated is some level of

• acceptance by gender critical feminists, to speak on this topic and get retweets and praise from women who withhold it from other trans identifying men.

I think we need to be aware of this.

But I too had initial relief that men with trans identities could apparently see the problems with GI too and that they were visible proof that the GC movement wasn't anti-trans. And some level of openness about what drives it is useful.

But once you see how much male privilege these special men still enjoy you can't unsee the manipulation and conquest of female spaces.

"If back then I had properly understood the inner drivers that had gripped me since early childhood"

Early childhood?

What does that mean? It's a fetish that, from my understanding, requires quite a lot of work to become established.

Is he trying to say he had a sexual fetish in early childhood?

That little children are capable of sexual fetishes?

DH, like so many men, serves DH and that’s it.
Being in the rare position of being trans and having self reflected (up to a point) he has carved himself a position to bring in attention and an egotistical sense of being a good guy.

Yes male thinking, but a little bizarre in a middle-aged man, who's been married, had children, and taught in a school!

To remain so ignorant of the lives of real women takes some doing.

IME it’s fairly typical for men to be ignorant of women’s lives, in as much as their needs are met (or not) and that’s the important thing.
In DH’s case, and many other TW, it’s more striking as for a group of people who claim to be us, they sure miss the fucking point!

All my sympathies are with his poor wife and children. I hope his wife can extract herself from this toxic porn-soaked man.

In all seriousness what is the point of the “specialist” psychiatrist? All it seems they do is say “you think you’re a woman? Ok off you pop”. How do you only think about what it means to be a woman years after surgery? How does a psychiatrist working in this field know nothing about AGP?