Thank you: Debbie Hayton in the Mail

I smiled wryly at the detail about Debbie's first memory of the feelings of being a woman - the times Debbie dressed up in their mother's tights. I never did that and so I wonder what evidence I have that I am actually a woman at all??

But speaking more seriously if I was told that a small child had secretly donned a routinely sexualised item of their mother's clothing, but I hadn't been told what sex the child was, I would certainly have guessed at boy.

As a small child, I openly and vociferously spoke of my desire to own and wear 'schoolboy socks' , because I was a tomboy. When I wore them it wasn't a secret shameful gratification, because unlike the tights wearing it wasn't a sex thing.

By confessing the AGP thing, I get the feeling that DH wants to be honest (I do think it's good for someone to be able to acknowledge that their transition was driven by AGP). But I also have a suspicion about something else (which others have eloquently pointed out) ...AGP is driven by boundary breaking. AGP creates a kind of high where the behaviour has to keep on escalating. At first it's wearing lacy underwear underneath clothes to work, then it progresses to 'being a woman' at home, then a woman full time, then getting access to female only spaces etc. In a way, what would be more perfect than being a fully confessed AGP, totally up front about it, and STILL being accepted by gender critical feminists? to go behind 'enemy lines' and be accepted by them, when you've admitted you are THE thing (a male with AGP) that gender crits criticise?

As Datun says, if this really is a fetish thing, and it's the main reason for DH's transition, then it's kind of messed up to still expect that we perceive DH as a woman. Because then the motivation isn't any kind of mental health care, or even just about feeling more comfortable...ultimately,the reason for the perception ties into his sexual thrills. It makes me feel like an unwilling participant. I honestly just don't see any good reason to acknowledge someone as a woman becuase they get a sexual kick out of it.

I would like to hear Stephanie's story.

@AlisonDonut when i say triggered i mean women who have been around here along time who know more than i do. There is no need to be combatative amongst ourselves. I am late stage to GC i was not part of the original journey.

Mine too. He knows she would be so fucked off with that.

And he knows we are.

But we're not the people he's trying to impress in order to sell his book.

By confessing the AGP thing, I get the feeling that DH wants to be honest (I do think it's good for someone to be able to acknowledge that their transition was driven by AGP). But I also have a suspicion about something else (which others have eloquently pointed out) ...AGP is driven by boundary breaking. AGP creates a kind of high where the behaviour has to keep on escalating. At first it's wearing lacy underwear underneath clothes to work, then it progresses to 'being a woman' at home, then a woman full time, then getting access to female only spaces etc. In a way, what would be more perfect than being a fully confessed AGP, totally up front about it, and STILL being accepted by gender critical feminists? to go behind 'enemy lines' and be accepted by them, when you've admitted you are THE thing (a male with AGP) that gender crits criticise?

As Datun says, if this really is a fetish thing, and it's the main reason for DH's transition, then it's kind of messed up to still expect that we perceive DH as a woman. Because then the motivation isn't any kind of mental health care, or even just about feeling more comfortable...ultimately,the reason for the perception ties into his sexual thrills. It makes me feel like an unwilling participant. I honestly just don't see any good reason to acknowledge someone as a woman becuase they get a sexual kick out of it.

Clearly, ultimate validation of their "womanhood" is different for different men.

Some like:

• Winning medals in women's sporting events
• Getting a job specifically advertised as being for women only, heading a rape crisis centre.
• Being housed in a women's prison whilst awaiting sentencing for rape
• Joining the WI and being featured in their magazine
• Being named "Woman of the Year"
• Being accepted as a sexual partner by a Lesbian/getting called a Lesbian

So it's not really that surprising that for some men the ultimate challenge to be validated is some level of

• acceptance by gender critical feminists, to speak on this topic and get retweets and praise from women who withhold it from other trans identifying men.

I think we need to be aware of this.

But I too had initial relief that men with trans identities could apparently see the problems with GI too and that they were visible proof that the GC movement wasn't anti-trans. And some level of openness about what drives it is useful.

But once you see how much male privilege these special men still enjoy you can't unsee the manipulation and conquest of female spaces.

@AlisonDonut when i say triggered i mean women who have been around here along time who know more than i do. There is no need to be combatative amongst ourselves. I am late stage to GC i was not part of the original journey.

I knew I had this somewhere.

Such a good post by @Datun, thank you for reposting it here, Rethinking.

I believe I've wised up a bit since then 😊

I've yet to come across any man with gender dysphoria who wouldn't regard as homophobic, or sexist, at best.

No, you were being clear-sighted and compassionate but firm! Your whole comment was instructive and influenced lots of us. I thought it was an excellent summation back in 2018 and it holds up well to describe the process for many in 2024. (I agree with your observation about the men with gender dysphoria. I'd be tempted to add that a number seem to have a flair for the manipulative.)

Whole comment.

Yes, peak trans is meant to invoke the image of a hill.

So people might start in the foothills wondering what on earth women are talking about, why is it so important?

Then they begin to question. Still not sure, because up until now, they didn't see any problem. Why not be nice? What's the big deal?

Then they start to understand the concepts. Sometimes they still waver, because this all feels like it's happening somewhere else. Online, or not really affecting them. And anyway, feminists have a downer on men, so it's unsurprising they're cross. And, honestly, I know a transwoman and she's absolutely delightful.

Then they read about a rapist being transferred to a female prison. So what, one news story. Are you saying all transwomen are rapists?!

Then they read about the woman who asked for a female HCP and got a man. Oh well, a little uncomfortable, but still, what's the big deal? Then they read that the woman was called a transphobic bigot for objecting.

Hmmm, well that's a bit off. I may not mind a man doing my smear test, but I can understand women who do. It's not really bigoted.

At this point you have advanced a few hundred yards up the hill.

Then a sports story is mentioned on here. A mediocre male weightlifter suddenly winning awards by competing as a woman.

Oh, whatever, I don't like sport anyway.

Then another one. Then someone in cycling, fell running, roller derby, football, cricket, golf.

Then suddenly it appears to be less about sport, and more about women being disadvantaged.

The crampons come out and you advance another few hundred yards up the hill.

Then you notice that a 19-year-old boy has been elected as labour's women's officer. Oh well, he probably feels like a woman inside. That's gender dysphoria, right?

Except he starts to compile a secret list of all women who disagree with him to get them ousted from the party. Despite his remit being to include as many women as possible in the party. Claims he can get pregnant in that biology is irrelevant.

Then you start to notice intimidating tactics against women. Meetings to discuss the upcoming law change are targetted, a 60-year-old woman is hit at speakers corner. Venues pull out, peoples jobs are threatened, they are doxxed online, they are reported to the police for disagreeing.

You scramble up towards the peak of the hill.

Then someone tells you about autogynephilia, and all the men's rights activists flocking to the trans movement. You realise that it is actually true that the government is legislating to legitimise a fetish.

You peak. You look back down the hill and can't believe you ever stood at the bottom.

Then you read of 2 transwomen, one of whom has been asked to speak at the Women's March. Who claims that being treated like a piece of meat by men is sexy and objectification is hot. And because they are woman, they speak on behalf of women. And the other one who claims that women are allowed to go to the Women's March, as long as they don't talk about their reproductive systems. You know, the very basis of women's oppression. Because it excludes men. The ones who are doing the oppressing.

And you peak all over again.

This keeps going.

You look at the handful of men with gender dysphoria and how to include them, and wish, with all your heart, that it could be that simple again.