Thank you: Debbie Hayton in the Mail

I would, obviously, be delighted if a young man was saved from a horrible fate, because of Debbie Hayton.

If Debbie Hayton stopped acting out his fetish in public, and spent his time addressing young men on Reddit, or tumblr, saying this life is shit, please don't do what I've done, then I might agree with you.

As it is, Debbie H is walking around conducting his fetish in full view of the public, doing interviews and selling books on the back of it.

I genuinely think a lot of women feel sorry for him tho. He doesn't look like the normal slightly threatening cross-dresser. He does cut a rather pathetic figure.

Just remember. He chooses what he looks like. He chooses what he wears. All of it.

I'll mention again, just in passing, the thought of the functional alcoholic.

Family, colleagues and friends would all have different stories to tell about their experience of the person's niceness, reliability, trustworthiness, the management of the addiction, their apparent insight into it and their current feelings on their control over it. And how badly they had impacted other people because of it. A colleague may have radically different perspectives than say, a wife.

It's remarkably similar ground in many ways.

Well, I'm not going to be happy until he's shaved his head, donned a suit and tie, and self-immolated whilst intoning 'this is all my fault'. Then come back from the dead just to travel back in time in order to unbreak his wife's heart.

Seriously, he's showing us who he is - a needy narcissist who wants to show off, make some money, and cause trouble.

I'm totally on board with the troublemaking part of it.

There's no need to be defensive about having been manipulated, we're all prone to it. Nobody is immune.

If the counter argument is "no, he is honest about those things" then why does he expect his teenage students to refer to him as a woman? How can he keep his job if he's honest that he makes his students do something that turns him on ?!

Yes, that’s appalling and unacceptable and I will oppose that, theoretically and in every practical way I can, all the way.

NONETHELESS, the fact that he is honest that TW are not W, that AGP exists and that transition will not solve all your problems needs to be said and could literally save some people from a horrible grisly and irreversible fate.

How can you not see that both can be true?

Hmm you’re not listening to me. You’re determined to cast me as a naive handmaiden who welcomes DH. I’m not.

He tells the truth about some things that are being dangerously lied about. I don’t need that, I’ve been aware of these truths for years. But those truths may get through to people who need to hear them.

The logical conclusion of this “you don’t realise you’re being manipulated “ line is that you think DH should be silent and the true things he says don’t count even though they’re the same truths that the GC movement are trying to get heard.

I don’t care if DH is trying to manipulate me - he won’t succeed. What do you think this dread manipulation you think I’ve fallen victim to is going to do to me exactly? I can recognise a truth / fact without becoming beholden to its teller. But people who are being lied to and misled by gender ideology may well benefit from him saying these things. A young man who’s been taken in by it all might decide to give it some thought and decide against surgery for example. Because he might see that there are other experiences and viewpoints besides “you’re a woman and you’ll be so happy once you get surgery”.

To me that would be a good thing. I’m a rationalist and what is known as GC, but I’m not in charge of everyone who dares to make a statement I agree with and tell them they can’t make it unless they fully align with my views and standards. I’m also not very impressed with people who can’t understand a considered or nuanced position making out that I’m the naive one. it’s possible to approach this and see parts as well as a whole.

His entire persona is an act of dishonesty

I agree with this. As he's a teacher, he's deceiving/confusing children which for me is beyond forgiveness.

His dishonesty is twofold:

1. He pretends to be a woman when he's actually a man.
2. He pretends that he does this because he feels deep down he's a woman. But actually he does it because it turns him on.

If the counter argument is "no, he is honest about those things" then why does he expect his teenage students to refer to him as a woman? How can he keep his job if he's honest that he makes his students do something that turns him on ?!

I think I'm going to have to give up. You just can't convince some people when they're being manipulated. I need a month on a desert island when the book comes out.

Personally, it's not about whether he's honest or not. (His entire persona is an act of dishonesty). It's the reason for it. And, again personally, I don't think for a single second that the reason for is honesty is to be honest.

If people haven't had enough dealings with either Hayton, or other men like him, then the only thing other women can do is to forewarn them in order that they are forearmed.

Look at actions, not words. Look at what you're expected to accept, rather than what you are being told are the motives of the person asking.

And, in case it wasn't clear, there are numerous men who are quite upfront about their AGP. Hayton is not unusual. And the one thing it's not characterised by is the candid nature of those who have it, and their concern for women.

None of this makes him an ally to women/the GC. He can pretend that if he likes. I don’t know what his motives are.

But it’s not lying to say that TW are men/male, that transitioning doesn’t make you the opposite sex and is unlikely to make you happy, that AGP exists. These are not lies. And they are things that are being routinely lied about and these lies are being promulgated in our education system, NHS, police etc. to disastrous effect for kids and homosexuals and women.

However manipulative or dishonest DH may be (and believe me, I am not naive about manipulative and narcissistic people, self-deluding people, passive-aggressive people etc and have had plenty of experience with them) - are you really saying he’s lying when he says these things? No he’s not. He’s telling the truth about these things and incurring massive wrath from the TRA lobby for doing so. Just as several prominent GC commentators do. They point out these same facts.

this isn’t about me being “grateful” to him, and I am not taken in by him as some kind of Mr Nice Guy. At all. But are you really saying that because you dislike and distrust him, he isn’t capable of telling the truth? He obviously IS telling the truth about the reality of sex, AGP and transition - and that’s important, whether or not you like its source.

Personally, the only stance an AGP could take to show any allyship to women, is not to do it in public.

Not keep on doing it, make a virtue out of telling everyone that you're doing it, and disregard your entire family, by putting it all in a book.

he may be manipulative and dishonest about some things, and may be a narcissistic husband,
This is not how dishonesty and narcissism work.

He's dishonest in more subtle ways. The person who makes us believe his lies (and in this case actually be grateful for them!) is far more dangerous than the obvious fool.

I don’t doubt that, but the TRA claim is that TWAW, AGP doesn’t exist and has been debunked (at least some of them say that) and sex is a spectrum and you can change sex (or that no one has one) blah blah. DH is telling the truth about these things while TRAs lie.

the fact that he may be manipulative and dishonest about some things, and may be a narcissistic husband, doesn’t change the fact that he is honest about some things that TRAs are lying about with very dangerous implications for children, among others. His honesty about those things does undermine and counteract that narrative and I think that’s a good thing. Doesn’t mean I think he’s a saint and certainly not a feminist but I would rather there were AGPs taking this stance, than not.

No. Absolutely not. He is a very skilful manipulator and entirely less honest than even the most rabid TRA.

Right, thank you, but that's about children and hot on the heels of government guidance that he'd be mad to disagree with.

Does he now tell his pupils they don't have to call him Miss?

And does he use the men's facilities?

Sorry, the article's behind a paywall, so I can't even check if it's in it.

No! I meant who would you pick for the imaginary interview? I would really like to know
I don't care who would be in the hypothetical interview. They wouldn't see it as the gotcha you think it is, and neither do I.

This is from the article:

we cannot change our sex and nor can we wish it away. In schools, we sometimes need to treat boys and girls differently – in sports, changing rooms and toilets, for example. In these situations, biological sex matters and transgender-identified children must not be accommodated with the other sex.

Not something I know anything about really but just spitballing

• women are not responsible for c.99% of all violence/sexual violence
• women don’t seem to tend to entangle innocents in their fetishes like these men do (wives, husbands, children)
• it’s well documented that the more dangerous sexual fetishes are almost totally the preserve of men
• male porn use and specifically the kind of porn which may produce AGPs - are any women looking at this. Doubt it. Maybe I’m naive!

Nick Robinson interviewed Paris lees for political thinking a few years ago. It was painful. I know many people don’t like NR but the coherence/thinking ability gap was just embarrassing to listen to. You could hear NR holding back, because he wasn’t allowed to dismantle PL’s points, so all he could do was let PL fall back on emotive nonsense and provide gentle prods.

No! I meant who would you pick for the imaginary interview? I would really like to know.

I'm thinking of Amol Rajan interviewing India Willoughby. A bit like shooting fish in a barrel though.

My trust is kind of buggered you see, after years of all this utter bullshit and manipulation.

Quite.

It is possible that Hayton has finally had a true change of heart after years of women repeatedly explaining it while trying not to bash their heads on their keyboards in frustration. Yippee, one man gets it after years of women trying. Let's have a parade.

There's no way Hayton didn't get it.

There are reams of commentary involving his participation on this site alone. He's been writing about it for years. Talking about it on Twitter, having documentaries made about him, being interviewed.

You couldn't not get it.

I might set more store by his epiphany if he hadn't deliberately swerved the issue for years, until he had a book to sell.

Whilst telling people how clever he is.

Can anyone show me exactly where he says he's rescinded the schools guidance and uses the men's? Because it's still a little unclear to me.

Maybe it's in the book...

I see DH on the toilets issue the same way as I see enthusiasts for comprehensive education who send their offspring to grammar school because the secondary modern is a hellhole.

But by publishing this book, he's sawing at the branch he's standing on. Third spaces is the only logical response.

And when it gets that muddy, I say focus on deeds not words. Ask who benefits. Ask who loses..

Some people even deceive themselves!