Thank you: Debbie Hayton in the Mail

Well he understood it well enough to write the guidance into the NASUWT policies, get his pupils to call him Miss, and use the ladies loos.

And?

Many people have behaviours, preoccupations, moods, compulsive habits that started in childhood - they still don’t understand them.

All human nature and personality is complex, and it took him a long time to come to understand his underlying motivations.

Well, anyway. We can continue to press on the mechanisms of AGP. What it is, how it operates, and the delusion that goes along with it.

I agree that the general public may well see things differently if rather than a 'most marginalised, brave and stunning' lens, they are considering that many of the men 'transitioning' are doing so because they are driven by a paraphilia.

That’s rather misunderstanding the complexity of his motivation, which he clearly wasn’t aware of at the time

Except he claims it started in 'early childhood'.

Apologies Datun I did misunderstand you there.

Yes the puff piece is designed to get plaudits for him, otherwise he wouldn’t do it. Yes it doesn’t describe in detail how he’s using children for gratification. It wouldn’t would it.

But it lays the groundwork for AGP to be more widely discussed and understood, especially as a major motivation for being “trans” among a certain demographic. And I hope ultimately that does lead to a full understanding of the details.

That’s rather misunderstanding the complexity of his motivation
AGP really isn't complex.

Agreed. It’s not like he’s getting rich on this, and I don’t care if he does - if he shines a light on the different motivation for trans - he’s doing the world a big favour.

I'm not going to thank Debbie Hayton for acting out his AGP in front of kids at school.

That’s rather misunderstanding the complexity of his motivation, which he clearly wasn’t aware of at the time. And it ignores the number of teachers who get off sexually on teaching teen girls or boys - there were a couple of hardcore offenders at my school.

Being trans is an income generator for Hayton. Hayton has benefited from (and been a part of instigating) the changes that have had such a negative impact on women and girls. Being positioned as the "reasonable" trans generates income for the family in terms of writing gigs and TV appearances. Coming up with fresh takes, such as hinting at regret, keeps people interested. This reminds me of internet content creators who go from vegan to carnivore and back again. It is all about the clicks.

Again, this may be true but it doesn’t mean he isn’t playing a part in dismantling a hugely harmful quasi-religious ideology with his revelations. Whatever his actual intentions.

And I think there are a lot of women, parents and others out there who will rapidly begin to see him as less “reasonable” the more they learn about AGP.

You're not getting the realities.

Deliberately.

"Pshaw. Why the hell would I deliberately not get it?"

No, I mean he is deliberately not giving them to you. Not you're deliberately not getting them.

An entire double spread, in anticipation of his book, and he's made all the below the line comments support him.

Don't you think that's an extraordinary feat?

If he writes interesting, intelligent, well-balanced and honest articles about the experience of transition - why shouldn’t he get paid for them? Why shouldn’t he publicise his perspective - it may well help people.

Are you so preoccupied with money that that’s a problem?

Do you really think, that if those people knew of the possibility that he was getting sexually aroused from making his pupils called him Miss, they would feel positive?

AGP in Daily Mail puff piece doesn’t reveal the full revolting details of AGP shocker. Of course he doesn’t. But as afternoonoflife say, it’s putting AGP in the spotlight and means now we can continue to talk about it - and feminists and those who care about safeguarding will have to point out that he is continuing to use his students, colleagues etc to get a thrill, as well as featuring in articles like this, and having photoshoots for them etc. And to bring these facts into the debate. Which gets easier to do when a TW with a platform says “It’s actually a fetish and I’m not a woman”. However much you dislike that TW or that he has that platform.

Again, the fact that I think him putting some facts out there is useful, doesn’t mean I cluelessly think he’s telling the whole truth.

But in the context of how successfully “TWAW” has been sold to those with power and policy influence, it’s important that we have the bases on which to challenge that. This is one of them.

You're not getting the realities.

Deliberately.

Pshaw. Why the hell would I deliberately not get it?

Being trans is an income generator for Hayton. Hayton has benefited from (and been a part of instigating) the changes that have had such a negative impact on women and girls. Being positioned as the "reasonable" trans generates income for the family in terms of writing gigs and TV appearances. Coming up with fresh takes, such as hinting at regret, keeps people interested. This reminds me of internet content creators who go from vegan to carnivore and back again. It is all about the clicks.

Agree afternoonlife.

To be clear, I did say I was sorry for him, but not because he’s an AGP or a presumed narcissist, porn-addled or whatever. But because I’m sorry for anyone (to varying degrees) who has damaged their body or health for the false promises of transition.

We live in a frankly insane period of history when the idea that you can change sex is being pushed by governments, the judiciary, healthcare, schools and many other institutions, and that to do this sex change you need to have surgery and/or take hormones that ultimately just damage healthy bodies. No one is convincingly or functionally getting the body of the opposite sex. And yet a wide range of people, for a variety of reasons, are being drawn into this false promise that they can, and it’s doing them harm. That’s true whether they are a morally good person or not.

I think I try and see it as part of shifting the Overton window

I agree this is extremely useful. Isla bryson did this very effectively - do you remember when Nicola Sturgeon had that interview, when asked if he's a man or a woman, she said he's a rapist! So he pushed the overton window in that they could start saying not all TWAW.

The difference is, no one is starting MN threads "thank you, Isla Bryson"

I'm not going to thank Debbie Hayton for acting out his AGP in front of kids at school. Even if it does help shine a light on his own depravity.

Nb I'm not saying DH is as bad as Isla Bryson, before anyone shoots me down. It's an analogy.

Also, look out for AGP being rebranded as a sexual orientation, directed inwards towards the self, instead of a cross dressing fetish reliant on misogyny and public participation.

That. That is absolutely crucial. The AGP fetish is a paraphilia, which relies, like most paraphilias do, on non-consensual participation of others. It only is arousing, engaging, compelling in as far as the power imbalance is maintained. And that depends on an unwilling audience and/or participants.

I'm sorry if I misrepresented what you said, and I'm not meaning to paint you as anything.

Because I think what DH is putting out there is helpful in establishing some of the realities behind trans ideology,

I know I've said this, I've probably said it ten different ways - what Hayton is putting out there is not the realities. It's a deliberately sanitised version.

The below the line comments to the article are positive. Do you really think, that if those people knew of the possibility that he was getting sexually aroused from making his pupils called him Miss, they would feel positive?

You're not getting the realities.

Deliberately.

I think I try and see it as part of shifting the Overton window. Mentioning AGP was verboten and still on here is deleted the majority of the time. Getting this in the Mail and having a man say I thought I was trans but actually it’s AGP and I didn’t know it at the time is a step in the right direction. I think a man talking about it will have more impact than a psychologist. I would like trans widows to be platformed but they would probably be anonymous and the impact is lessened slightly. And, being women, less likely to be listened to.

Yes DH has his own motivations and is a narcissistic pornsick misogynistic man who should not be platformed by feminists or GCers. But once these men have said AGP out loud we can use that to further our cause. Yes some people will feel sorry for him, but hopefully more will feel a bit disgusted and think again about the whole concept of trans. How many people on here were “true trans” originally? And how many are “true trans” now? We just need to keep pushing the window. Imho.

The basis for AGP is the worst kind of misogyny. Feeling sexually aroused by the thought of women being subjugated. Any admission of having it should preclude you, instantly, from having any further opinion about women at all.

I agree that we’re possibly debating quite fine distinctions, but I’m not clueless about where AGO comes from. I said in my first post that I would prefer DH to understand the sexist roots of his AGP. This is my point. Because I think what DH is putting out there is helpful in establishing some of the realities behind trans ideology, some posters assume I know nothing and thought this through and need to brush up on feminism 101. No. I understand that AGP is about a view of women as submissive and weak and fetishising that submission and the “shame” that AGPs find exciting. And…

But when you've got a man who enacts his fetish in public, on his family, and in his job, and writes articles about it and now a book, and you still think his goal is to expose the lies and reality of the impact of AGP, then we're probably never going to agree that what he says is useful

…again you ignored what I actually said. I said I don’t know what his motivation is. You see me saying that I think the realities he’s exposing are good for the public to know, and fellow feminists are turning that into me praising him or saying he’s trying to help, when I said nothing of the sort. As I’ve pointed out, those realities can come from a range of sources some of which aren’t trying to help the GC cause at all.

It’s as if you want me to be a manipulated naive handmaiden so that you can show you’re not. So you’re ignoring my actual posts and casting me as someone who thinks DH is aiming to do us all a good turn and is in our side - when I’ve clearly said I don’t think that.

That’s interesting in itself, that some feminists need to see others as less feminist and clued-up so as to push a narrative that a man is too clever for them and they haven’t seen through the wolf’s disguise. But if the wolf in disguise says “I eat grandmas” and I agree that is true and something people should know, that doesn’t mean I think the wolf is the good guy or trying to help.

I realise this is in danger of becoming well I think it's turquoise, and you think it's aquamarine!

We both think we're right. And I don't think that's going to change. And we probably agree far more than we disagree.

The basis for AGP is the worst kind of misogyny. Feeling sexually aroused by the thought of women being subjugated. Any admission of having it should preclude you, instantly, from having any further opinion about women at all.

But when you've got a man who enacts his fetish in public, on his family, and in his job, and writes articles about it and now a book, and you still think his goal is to expose the lies and reality of the impact of AGP, then we're probably never going to agree that what he says is useful.

What's that saying? Something along the lines of men are unlikely to dismantle the very thing that's responsible for their livelihood (and, in this case, sexual excitement).

Also, look out for AGP being rebranded as a sexual orientation, directed inwards towards the self, instead of a cross dressing fetish reliant on misogyny and public participation.

This is all very PIE

I thought as soon as people realise children are given puberty blockers, or when they see the a man in a female race, or find out that rapists are in womens prisons, everyone would see sense and it all would stop.

But it hasnt.

Praising Hayton for being GC and admitting hes doing it all for sexual attention, could work, i suppose. But it not very likely, is it?

This is no different to the glossy stuff peddled by the Beaumont Society since forever.

I expect the happy couple to be pictured out shopping together in the next episode.

I understand the potentially useful aspects of men being open about their sexual motivations and fetishistic drives.

However, it's hard to forget that in the background is often/usually a wife and children who asked for none of it, and are not benefitting from any of it.