Thank you: Debbie Hayton in the Mail

Oh yes, indeed. And who wants to be a person without compassion?

It's hard to not let it cloud one's judgement, of course.

One of the things that is noticeable is how, because of transgender campaigning by stonewall, etc, what would normally be considered abusive behaviour is rebranded as brave and stunning.

A lot of the transwidows struggle to even find a single therapist who would be on their side.

The relentless painting of an AGP man as a victim precludes a lot of women getting support, or even people understanding their situation. Including friends and family.

This. In the 20th century, a woman whose husband was revealed to be TV got sympathy and wasn't expected to support him or stick around. The relentless promotion of genderism fixed this 'problem' and created a lot of new ones.

Now DH wants to dismantle genderism whilst keeping his own existing advantages (hmm, what does that remind me of?).

I would love to see his employers ask him to dress in a suit, because they don't want him practising his sexual fetish in front of the children.

To be clear: I'm not talking about DH here or any specific person, here.

I just want to note that abusers very very often have sad backstories - it's quite unsurprising if you think about it and may sometimes explain why they act as they do.

However they are also prone to using sad stories as a means to exert control, manipulate, gaslight, destabilise and threaten.

How often do we hear women on the Relationships board say they can't leave because they're scared he'll 'do something stupid'?

People are pre-programmed, or have been up until now, to think of these men as sad, struggling and misunderstood, who deserve all the compassion we can give them.

People can be sad, struggling, misunderstood, marginalised and in need of compassion while also being abusive, risky, lacking in boundaries or actively transgressing boundaries.

The simplistic idea that if someone is a victim they are therefore de facto harmless is in itself a very naive and dangerous one.

Thank-you TinselAngel I think my embarrassment is probably good for me. In slight defence of my past self in my naivety I knew nothing about AGP. Finding out about it was a real moment of clarity in why my dealings with TW colleagues had all been ‘weird and unsettling’ in a way they weren’t for my male colleagues.

There’s an aspect of Hayton’s current appearance that screams AGP that he shares with many TW and really gives me the ick but I’ve been deleted before for alluding to it (interestingly he ‘toned’ it down for the DM photos). His thoughts on what ludicrous thing he thinks increases womens social standing with other women gives a clue

Don't be embarrassed @TrainedByCatsToBeScathing I vaguely thought he might be helpful when I first came into this because I assumed he must be gay. I was horrified when I discovered (via the Stella O Malley doc) that he had a wife, which changed my views completely.

I promise that's not a sock 😄

But there it is.

Unwitting participation in the fetish with pronouns because you think it's kind. Tick.

Oblivious to the safeguarding disaster of an AGP teacher setting their own school guidelines. Tick

Not unduly bothered that he will be listened to more than women, and you like, respect, and appreciate him. Tick

Believing you are getting treated to an honest narrative, by a man opposed to gender ideology, despite being a self-confessed autogynophile. Tick.

Also I wonder what has persuaded that poster that participating in this will make them feel more comfortable? Also a tick.

Someone who, presumably, doesn't even know Debbie.

Impeccable timing there, londonlass.

To my massive and everlasting embarrassment I was where LondonLass was at the start of my journey of understanding. I credit the many knowledgeable women on FWR & TinselAngel transwidows threads for helping through that journey quicker than I might have done.

I felt the DM nailed it at one point when they asked Hayton “were you aware how insufferable you were?”

Right on cue, Datun!

It also doesn’t help when theoretically feminist groups celebrate men like Debbie instead of putting their wives / partners / daughters first. I hope Debbie’s children come across https://childrenoftransitioners.org/ soon, if they haven’t already.

Oh dear.

Blimey. See!

I really like and respect Debbie, happy to refer to her as she, although appreciate the point Debbie makes about never actually being a woman, so that's just what feels comfortable to me. I think Debbie has done alot to stand up against gender ideology. It is interesting to me that if a female teacher spoke out against gender ideology then they would be sacked (previously perhaps) but with Debbie they wouldn't bloody dare!

Take a look at the trans widow threads on here.

They are a mine of information. And you realise, pretty quickly, that there is a pattern.

One of the things that is noticeable is how, because of transgender campaigning by stonewall, etc, what would normally be considered abusive behaviour is rebranded as brave and stunning.

A lot of the transwidows struggle to even find a single therapist who would be on their side.

The relentless painting of an AGP man as a victim precludes a lot of women getting support, or even people understanding their situation. Including friends and family.

Look how the narrative in yesterday's article produced so many BTL comments of support for Debbie.

People are pre-programmed, or have been up until now, to think of these men as sad, struggling and misunderstood, who deserve all the compassion we can give them.

When the entire ideology is sold on the basis of Be Kind, or else, the women are just collateral damage.

Thanks theilltempered…

I read it before it got nixed and I'm baffled.

Don't know why i got deleted please know I wasn’t saying anything rude or offensive to anyone

(I don't need to have CC explained to me - I know a lot about it and yes have seen loads of threads on here about it and I followed the law change closely. I'm not failing to understand CC - I'm asking why having no power in an AGP relationship is any different or worse than when there's CC or abuse but no AGP involved.)

I do understand coercive control, but it is now illegal, and my point is that it happens in relationships where this hasn't happened - where the man is not and AGP or id-ing as a woman.

What's the difference between "normal" (non-AGP) coercive control or abuse and the AGP variety? Millions of women have been in controlling relationships, as well other types of relationships where they had no power, as I said - and either left them or not left them, for a variety of complex reasons of course. The law has been changed to make it easier (not saying it's ever easy) to get rid of a CC partner.

Is there something different about AGP that makes it harder to leave than any other type? And is coercive control necessarily inherent in AGP - doesn't any man ever say "I've decided to indulge my AGP/be a TW, I understand if you want to end it" and mean that?

I know people on this thread do know about this so these are genuine questions.

Coercive control is incredibly powerful. Take a look at the relationship board here to see some real life examples.

It's a recognised form of abuse and it's also now become a crime.

Agreed

I read @Karensalright as saying forewarned is forearmed.

If we achieve the dream of dismantling trans ideology and law, on the basis that you can't change sex, and that those who have tried to do it have bad, or at least unwise, motives, then what shall we do with all those out and proud AGPs?

People will defend them on freedom of choice and anti-gender conformity grounds, rather than talking about destigmatisation.

I see the conversation moved on while I was slowly typing, so, how do we stop necrophiles from training to be undertakers?

MrsTwat I recommend reading up on coercive control. 'Why doesn't she just leave' is something that can be hard to understand if one has not experienced an abusive relationship.