Lia Thomas.....again. Yes, really in 2024 😠

Article by Caitlyn Jenner in the Mail criticising the USA Ladies Professional Golf Association for allowing the transwoman Hailey Davidson to compete and pointing out that Davidson was an unsuccessful mediocre male golfer who has only succeeded by competing against women:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13007351/lpga-golf-transgender-caitlyn-jenner-hailey-davidson.html

It's a sign of a weak person. Thomas needs validation and doesn't care how it is acquired. Thomas needs to work on that, get back in male sports and enjoy being the 400th or so best male swimmer in the US. Rock up in the black women's cossie and swim hard, try to win a race against other men.

I'd love to be that good, so would all the other many thousands of male competitive swimmers from 500th and downwards.

I hope they tell him to piss off and take his bondage gear with him.

Christ, what kind of mindset is it that says if you only knew how much I wanted this, you'd let me walk all over you.^

I wonder if it would work the other way? Go round to theirs for tea, decide you like the autographed very expensive signed photo of Audry Hepburn on the wall and spend the entire evening telling them if they only knew how much of an AH superfan you were they'd let you take it off the wall and put it in the boot of your car!

It's no different. I want that thing you've got, I'm going to tell you repeatedly how much I want it, then if I don't get my way I'll get upset and if I still don't get my way I'll just take it anyway.

Women’s sport categories exist to allow women to shine and excel on a level playing field built for their sex class. These categories recognise that women are physically different to men. Women’s bodies, strong and fit though they may be, do not have the same capabilities as men’s bodies. An elite woman’s peak strength and fitness, while impressive for her sex class, would likely not be enough to beat an amateur teenage boy, as has been proven in the past.

When elite women athletes line up for a swimming race, they’re not there because they feel like women. They’re there because they ARE women, who have worked and trained bloody hard to be the best in their sex class. They deserve their moment in the sun.

A transwoman can try to reduce testosterone levels and make themselves physically weaker, thinking it’s then fair and just for them to compete with women. I say a big fat no to that. Women are not weakened males. Women are women, whether they feel like women, or have no gender identity, or feel non-binary or even masculine. They’re women, their biology is different, they need their own sports categories.

Transwomen competing with women are destroying the integrity of women’s sport and taking away opportunities from women and girls. Doesn’t matter how nice these TW are or how valid their reasons are for transitioning. If Lia respected women, Lia would stay in Lia’s own lane.

The swimming council did exactly this and had to cancel the 1st open competition because noone signed up.
The simple fact is that this is not about being able to compete, its about violating women's boundaries and taking their rights, sports, privacy and dignity all whilst being validated as a "woman".
@NumberTheory it's a Swiss crt not an American one

Follow the money….

Someone is funding Thomas. Someone wants to set a precedent. The LGBTQ+++ lobby is well resourced. It would be a pity if the other side lost because they do not have the funds to commit. This is not just a sports issue. It is a women’s issue. Women don’t only have the right to fair competition. They have the right to single sex changing spaces.

Their body their choice but if they're serious about changing genders AND competing it shouldn't be a problem for them,

I refer you to Datun's excellent post of 24/1 @ 23.13:

^God, the fucking arrogance. No one gives a shiny shit why you 'transitioned'. Just stop cheating.

Christ, what kind of mindset is it that says if you only knew how much I wanted this, you'd let me walk all over you.^

Lia is the best... at peaking people.

Without Lia the fight back would not be less advanced in a major way. As long as the trans movement focused on hurting women prisoners, tricking kids into hurting themselves, and attacking feminists they gained ground in the US - sports was the turning point though with Lia leading the way.

Right now loads of women and girls are indirectly safer because of Lia's male sports ego has got push back going and more women are feeling ready to speak up.

The issues here are three fold.

1. Open categories in addition to male and female categories have been trialled. On at least one occasion it was cancelled as no-one entered. On other occasions, there’s been mutterings that they needed to be separated further into “Originally male” and “Originally female” classes because - surprise, surprise - the winners were all those born male. One answer is two categories: open and female, but transwomen competitors (that is to say, those born male) don’t like that. They want access to women’s spaces becuase that’s what validates them.

2. Transitioning a certain period before competition, reducing testosterone etc does not alter the fact that a body which has gone through puberty as male has physical advantages over one which has gone through puberty as female. The only possible resolution is to insist on full transition before puberty, which would be ethically and morally dubious, to say the least.

3. Elite-only restrictions completely ignores grassroots competition, which is where all elite competitors originate and where many compete for fun at amateur level. If girls are pushed out of competition (and sport generally) at this level - and let’s not forget that female participation in sport is sometimes hard to achieve anyway - then that’s not fair. It’s also losing those who would go on to compete at elite level because they drop out due to disappointment with not doing as well as they should/not getting places on teams/not wanting to share changing rooms with biological males/not wanting to risk injury from male bodied players in contact sports. Why should they lose out?

A central tenet of sport is fairness. The male bodied competing against females in sports where men have an advantage (a few sports have men and women competing equally, notably equestrianism, but it’s rare) just simply is not fair. And it matters more than “kindness” or “inclusivity”.

World Aquatics did have an open category for trans swimmers last year. No one entered. Strange, that.

Good god man, womens sports is not a consolation prize because you have had it rough

Its a bit of any oxymoron isn't it, you're good enough to be an elite sportsperson but also claim that hormones take away any male advantage. According to Ross Tucker it was obvious that Lia held back in races and thats why it wasn't first place in every race.

If Lia's transition was just about being happy and not also winning then why try to compete in elite sports?

TWAW doesn't sound as good if it comes with an * that says "except for in sports"

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/sport/2023/oct/03/swimming-world-cup-category-for-transgender-athletes-cancelled-after-no-entries-received

It's not about having their own. It's about winning against women

Lots of us would support a third category. The people who wouldn't are the trans identifying athletes. A HUGE part of their aggression towards women is based on them bullying their way into being accepted into our spaces.

The 5 year wait would allow Lia, at 6ft 4 and with a penis and testicles, having enjoyed the benefits of male puberty and testosterone for years, to change in the women's changing area and to compete with women, at future events.

No one gives a shiny shit why you 'transitioned'. Just stop cheating.

^^This

I don’t feel comfortable suggesting anyone female enters men’s boxing, men’s rugby, men’s races, goes into men’s spaces etc. Any man can rugby tackle anyone as long as they both identify the same?
We have a hundred years of data in many areas telling us that’s a terrible idea. Who is accountable if anything goes wrong?

We’re indulging something with no end in sight. Where is this going? What’s the
next demand going to be?

Gender identity needs to be separated back out from sex.

Good question, I just figured that most elite athletes are above legal age and most elite athletes are in uni/college age or above I think, so they can start hormones and transitioning at 17 or 18.

Their body their choice but if they're serious about changing genders AND competing it shouldn't be a problem for them, plus if they are underage or decide too late in life, there's always the "Everyone welcome" section

My mistake, NotBad. I should have read one of the full articles. From the first few sentences of the Telegraph I got the impression she'd been to the Court of Arbitration for Sport and was now pursuing through the US courts. Glad that's not the case.

That’s not what they want, though. They want validation, or they want to win, and they don’t care who gets under their big massive man feet on the way to that female locker room, or that podium.

Also, five years between transitioning and competing won’t change the physiological advantages having been through male puberty affords an athlete. That’s there for life, no matter how strong the lady feelz or hormone tablets.

Doesn't this lead to them saying kids should be transitioning younger before puberty?

But there is precedent in the Court of Arbitration for Sport preventing males who have been through male puberty from competing in women’s sport: Caster Semenya.

I'm sure this has been discussed before, amd may be considered a very stupid suggestion, but why not keep the male-female competitions and then pilot test having an "Open gender" competition so that anyone who wants to compete, and trans-identifying peoples, can in the "Open" lanes?

And maybe at the elite levels, like world championships or Olympics, if transpeople want to compete with the gender they currently identify as, then make it a rule that they had to have started transitioning at least 5 years before competition. This would allow them to train for 5 years at less elite levels as the gender they identify with while getting hormones etc.

I know the entire issue is more complicated than this, but that feels like it would solve temporarily all concerns...

There is, unfortunately, a significant precedent in the US for the law supporting Transwomen in female sport.

I look forward to him getting his arse handed to him in crt, as that will give the other sports bodies the green light to do the same.