Lia Thomas.....again. Yes, really in 2024 😠

@Datun

These men wanting to compete in women's sports are doing it for two reasons. Firstly to win and secondly to have validation of their self perception that they're not men.

Indeed. What I have never been able to understand is how those two goals can be kept up in the air at the same time in that juggling, because if they win it is very likely that it is because they have the advantage caused by going through male puberty.

So if they win they get to enjoy sticking their finger up at all the women, but they don't get that validation they desire. The reverse situation applies if they lose.

As an aside, I can't personally grasp why anyone actually identifying WITH women would do this, knowing full well that sports has nothing to do with some abstract feeling which some people have but much to do with the sexed bodies.

Not only the expense of the race suits and having to change san pro but also the fact that cycles really do affect how we can race and train. Liar Thomas has also never had to contend with that.

This attempt by Lia Thomas is the last howling rage of a thwarted man. What's depressing is how many people just can't bear the thought of a man being thwarted, they want to fix it.

This ^^ Well said.

It is so tempting to get lost in the 'but what about if we just fuck women over a little bit, surely women can suck up a bit so that a sad special man can feel better'. Just THOSE men. Just under THESE special circumstances. Just so long as it's only a FEW women harmed.

This is rooted in a belief that men matter and women are therapy resources for them as opposed to equal humans.

And Thomas says it: 'you can't believe half way'. This is what the be kind well intentioned people haven't yet clocked. The whole soothing 'yes, yes, you're definitely absolutely a woman look at me using your pronouns' usually comes from a belief that you're engaged in a kind game with someone in good faith, where you both know it's a game and the other person won't push it too far.

And you then get rage and anger when you reach a boundary and have to say well no, the pretense can't go here because now it's harming others. It's the exact same rage in the articles written by male people with TQ+ identities about how lesbian women are very kind to them, will listen attentively, give lots of positive attention to men identifying as lesbians - but then won't get their knickers off and DTD.

You think it's kindness. They think it's cock teasing.

It is much kinder to say no from the start.

Excellent post.

Plus - isn't it amazing that "transitioning" doesn't just not reduce male puberty advantage, but seems to actually increase male entitlement.

We need a study on this . . . there's a nice little PhD in there for someone, I'm sure.

Sorry - didn't realise you'd posted this and have done the same.

Too late to edit, so apology.

Yep - they'll be pushing for in utero transition next.

It's been tried - they didn't get any entrants for the "open" category.

I can't imagine why . . . .

https://www.insidethegames.biz/articles/1141404/aquatics-shelves-open-category-berlin

Thr guardian article is good. Very carefully worded to never use a pronoun about Thomas except in quotes when quoting Thomas's own words. Makes it clear that the science is on the side that Thomas isn't on.

These men wanting to compete in women's sports are doing it for two reasons. Firstly to win and secondly to have validation of their self perception that they're not men.

You're not getting first class male athletes suddenly transitioning, forgoing all the kudos and money involved in male sport to switch to competing as women.

Whilst they can still win big in the men's, they will.

Women's sport is not a consolation prize. Nor is it a means for men to make more money, or validate themselves.

i'm sure you don't mean to come across like this thepressoutside, because, no doubt, you're just trying to be kind, but it is remarkable how many people want to shoehorn men into women's sport, and will scrabble around for different ways of doing it, just because the men want it.

Can we do it this way, what about that way, what if we hobble them with these drugs, what if we disadvantage them with this means.

Quite apart from the fact that there is no way to disadvantage men sufficiently, women's sport isn't a bloody service for men to utilise because, for whatever reason, they can't shine in their own category.

Women want to watch women win. Women who have worked their bloody anrses off to get where they are, at the peak of their fitness, not taken drugs to reduce their advantage!

It's an utter mockery of what sport is for.

And it stays relative right down to grassroots level.

This attempt by Lia Thomas is the last howling rage of a thwarted man.

What's depressing is how many people just can't bear the thought of a man being thwarted, they want to fix it.

And they simply expect women to be the means.

meh. They have lots of women reporters too. That doesn't stop the likes of Zoe Williams and Owen Jones shitting all over women constantly.

I don't think the intent is necessary to get thomas a place on the team, it's to confuse the definition of women or female.

Any definition of woman that excludes men will be challenged, and boundaries constantly pushed, even if that doesnt result in a man on the team. As pp have noted, the world isnt going to see a thomas in a cossie as a woman, but few are going to see the definition of women in the swimming rules until its set legally.

Rather than having female meaning the type of gametes produced, it'll be definined around puberty, or testosterone levels, or diagnosis of gender and different depending on situation. Women = testosterone in sport, puberty in changing rooms, grc in marriage.

If 'woman' doesnt mean one single thing, eventuality 'woman' will mean anything and no one is sure when a man is a woman and when he isnt.

Then we will be fighting to define women = gametes in select situations only. But the confusion will still exist and likely result in men as women everywhere in practice if not legally.

Do you what really galls me about the fact this is in swimming?

When girls get their first period, they have to learn how to handle tampons. Ever tried to explain to your 11 year old daughter how tampons work? At bloody five in the morning because practice is at 5:30 and you need to get a move on?

Or girls who get their periods during the championships that are whole weekends and have to find a way to change the tampons as you are swimming for ten hours and tampons have to be changed? Which means you have to take off your carbon race costume, change it, shower, and then put another carbon race costume on, which on average takes 15-20 minutes? Because you can't put a wet carbon race costume back on. So you need to own two at 300 pounds a piece.
And before anyone asks, if you need to pee, you pee through your costume and shower afterwards.

Boys don't have these issues. This is why so many girls stop racing once puberty hits. And then this dude just rocks up, never had to deal with these issues and beats the girls that have struggled through all of it. Just angers me so much

Absolutely 👏👏

Every time these people speak about how unfair it is all I hear is ‘me me me me me me me me me me me’

All that matters in their self absorbed delusional world is their feelings and bollox to everyone else.

@Datun Perfectly put 👏

The Olympics are big business. Men's sport will be bigger business than women's. The men's 100m sprint will be bigger business than the hammer throw but everything contributes. Broadcasters will be buying the package and will be interested in average audiences over the whole thing. Swimming televises reasonably well and is something that richer countries are good at. The Italians or the French will switch on if one of their women is in contention for a medal.

Lia Thomas in the women's finals might attract a certain level of curiosity first time round, but audiences will soon cool to watching mediocre men compete against women. Who cares whether they feel like a women. Women's sport is about the fastest, strongest, most determined women competing against each other.

Which is why we keep getting this fudge, where elite sport is women only and grassroots sport is "inclusive". It is about protecting the business. Of course people know that spots on good grass roots teams are seriously competitive as are places on regional and national pathways, and that is boys are blocking places future elite girls may not make it through. They don't care about the girls who is sitting on the bench or not making the final. They don't care about the girl forced to share a changing room with a larger stronger male. But they do care that they can sell their Olympic TV packages.

I love this photo of the gold winning mixed relay 4x100m team at the 2020 Tokyo Olympics. All brilliant swimmers, all at the top of their game and all maximising peak performance.

Two very distinctive body shapes.

Those who support Lia Thomas (who, in contrast to pretty much every other elite athlete on the planet, is supposedly trying to inhibit peak performance rather than maximise it) presumably think it'd be OK in this event to just swap out one (or two) of the body types on the right for additional types on the left (as long as they were still wearing the correct swimsuit) and that would still be fair competition...

The problem is that it doesn't impact men's sport in the slightest and some people only care about men's sport.

Trouble is that the defendant will be an international organisation based in Switzerland, possibly heavily dependent on US money. (Or the Chief Executive will be very dependent on US and other Anglophone votes to retain his position.) How much will they put into the fight, emotionally or financially?

This may depend on whether they have got the message that having mediocre men win women's medals cannot be good for sport generally.

This.

Why this male athlete ‘transitioned’ has no relevance at all. That would be all just sparple! Sparple, sparple, sparple!

Well I braved the Mail and read the article. I agree with everything CJ said and I hope it has some clout. But as one comment underneath the article points out, in 2015 CJ won Glamour's Woman of the Year award. Pot and kettle?

I suspect this too. I think that a group decided that Thomas has some sort of chance to win and turn all the policies on their head.

I say, “bring it on!!!” I cannot wait to see what studies they bring on. There must be at least one in the pipeline that they feel will be significant, if not more. And the legal team will have prior notice of this.

Refreshing to read a factual, non-proselytising article on the subject of trans in the Guardian. I feel so apprehensive when I begin to read any guardian piece on this subject (and I usually feel so manipulated and betrayed by the time I get a paragraph in).

This is what McKinnon / Ivy was leveraging to get sports policies changed. And succeeded which is why female athletes are in the situation to fight so hard to get them changed back. Particularly in cycling in North America where McKinnon / Ivy was heavily involved.

Kids who transition won’t be taking women’s places in sport, it’s not conducive to athletic achievement. Look at poor Jazz Jennings for what childhood transition does to a boy’s body.
That being said, I’m of the opinion that no male should be in women’s sports, no matter when they ‘transitioned’.

I know my DC's goal is to get to Olympic trials for either 2028 or 2032 but he won't be trying to claim he's female in order to do it!