Non Binary Teachers

Many actresses are declaring themselves as NB and getting mastectomies.

people.com/yellowjackets-star-liv-hewson-more-alive-after-top-surgery-7554623

The other thing to consider is how close to a religion is 'genderism'? Is it more like a niche belief like astrology?

I don't know. "Religion" is probably the wrong word. But it's definitely a metaphysical belief, unless science (ie the empirical observation based methodology we use in the West) one day demonstrates otherwise. So it shouldn't be presented to children as fact.

My area of knowledge is pre-adolescents, I haven't studied adolescent psychology for years and know very little about current thinking. But young children are generally very literal. I don't know how you could present trans and non-binary ideas to them without either completely upending the very building blocks of their observed worldview about boys vs girls, or telling them "You must comply with this speech pattern but you're not allowed to understand why".

Both methods are, at best, not in line with current pedagogical best practice, and at worst are safeguarding issues.

I suppose you could successfully implant a literal belief in trans if you got to a child early, before they started observing differences between boys and girls. But you'd have to get to them in the pre-conceptual age, ie before the age of about 4/5. I'd suggest that that in itself is a safeguarding issue.

But just because some people have said that they have come across some NB teachers who have done this, it does not mean that all NB teachers would act that way. Many people on the thread have shared examples of inappropriate male teachers- I don’t hear anyone saying “ban men from teaching!”

I don’t think it’s a big deal if a NB or trans teacher asks students to call them “Mx” or “teacher” or whatever their preferred title is. I think there are many ways of doing it without making it a big deal. It doesn’t follow that they are going to then “preach” about it to their students.

FWIW, I agree with this.

But there's so little definition of what NB is, and it seems to mean different things to different people. And no clear guidance (yet) about how to discuss these things. Gender identity is not to be referred to in councils etc now. It is not a protected characteristic nor a recognised belief. It is likely to be changed in school curriculum docs.

I personally don't think anyone who is NB sees it as a belief. I personally think they think they're part of the pride rainbow. It's also become so normalised for some younger people who are working now that they wouldn't see the harms or conflicts or confusion that could arise.

There are so very many questions that can lead to inappropriate conversations and teaching, some probably very naive thanks to stonewall and no trans guidelines, that I think it's absolutely right to be having these conversations as has been had on this thread.

Safeguarding is not about dismissing concerns because of not wanting to stereotype or tar everyone with the same brush. That's what held back action over the grooming gangs.

It's about being honest and forensic and clear. No one is clear what Nb is. What it means. How they'll describe themselves. What it will lead to. www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/04/bbc-criticised-non-binary-casualty-character-top-surgery/

Stop being so disingenuous. No one is saying children won't come across trans people in 'real life', but they are saying the issue is seeing a male person and indoctrinating the child into pretending the person isn't male.

My child has a NB teacher. I explained to DC that this was a belief system that some people hold where they think most people want to follow restrictive sex stereotypes like hairstyle, interests and clothing and that they are special because they don’t. We talked about how silly this is and that girls can like football, computing and have short hair and boys can like long hair and home economics and it is all just fashion anyway that changes with time as does our own tastes. We then agreed DC should call the teacher politely by the name she chose in class and otherwise treat her like any other teacher and that it was ok to use she/her when referring to her because, as DC Speech and Language Therapist taught, pronouns refer to sex and it is discriminatory to place a demand on a child with speech, language and communication needs to change their use of the basic structures of language to fit your belief. We also agreed she is a woman, it is ok to recognise that but that as she doesn’t want to be reminded of it due to her belief he doesn’t need to say anything about it in class.

I think you’ve made a very big leap there!

You said: "Better that they have the issues [trans] explained to them by a trusted adult,"...

The discussion then moved on to age appropriate ways in which the trans belief might be explained to children. I said that young children would not be able to grasp the theoretical phrasing offered by @ArabellaScott and would probably revert to body-based questions since children under the age of around 9 typically understand girl vs boy by outward genitalia (below around age 5, it's been shown by studies to be hair length, then it changes to outward genitalia).

This is why the trans belief is not an appropriate conversation to have with children, because with young children, it would risk devolving very quickly into areas which are inappropriate for a teacher to discuss with a child.

We then discussed the difference between "trusted adult", which in primary teaching usually means parent/guardian, and "in loco parentis". A teacher in loco should not be having conversations with a child about outward genitalia (apart from in very specific proscribed circumstances, of which the trans belief is not one).

Completely agree with all of that.

In my experience all the activist type teachers are secondary teachers. Every single primary teacher I know, and I know a lot, are 100% clear on biology. Most of them are great at challenging stereotypes.

It seems to be the ones who work with teens who go in for the Stonewall stuff.

The other thing to consider is how close to a religion is 'genderism'? Is it more like a niche belief like astrology? I'm not a teacher and I'm not aware what the rules are on teachers disseminating beliefs that aren't actually religious. Philosophical views, abstract theory, political views. Using 'Mx' is manifesting those views, which are probably I would say more political than religious.

It would also be inappropriate for a teacher to try to iniaite a conversation with a child about genital anatomy.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting otherwise?!

A teacher is in loco parentis but that doesn't mean it's appropriate for them to proactively have conversations with a child about any matter they wish. For example, it would be inappropriate for a teacher to speak with a child about their religion or metaphysical worldview and suggest, either explicitly or implicitly, that the child take that worldview on too. It would also be inappropriate for a teacher to try to iniaite a conversation with a child about genital anatomy.

I think we’re a long way from the OP now. As many people have said, over-sharing your personal life, or trying to indoctrinate students with your own beliefs is not ok, it’s against the teaching standards, and should be reported. Interestingly, the OP has not returned to share whether she actually did report these teachers and what the school’s response was.

But just because some people have said that they have come across some NB teachers who have done this, it does not mean that all NB teachers would act that way. Many people on the thread have shared examples of inappropriate male teachers- I don’t hear anyone saying “ban men from teaching!”

I don’t think it’s a big deal if a NB or trans teacher asks students to call them “Mx” or “teacher” or whatever their preferred title is. I think there are many ways of doing it without making it a big deal. It doesn’t follow that they are going to then “preach” about it to their students.

Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic, and trans/non binary are among the many things taught on the PSHE curriculum. So your children are going to hear about it in school regardless.

You are just proving my point. What does it matter what that person’s individual beliefs about gender are?

As long as they teach your child the curriculum, their personal life doesn’t matter to you.

Have you not thought that there may well be children in the class with parents or siblings who identify as non binary?

But they're not in this OP.

And there's been a number of other threads and comments here and there about similar behaviour.

And the belief is impacting the children who are being asked to participate in the adult's idea about themselves.

If adults can work out how to ensure students are not impacted at all then fine

And by that I mean if a student says Sir to a male there should be zero embarrassment- it’s a fact based pronoun

So go with taking whatever out that is leading to that outcome.

The embarrassment is coming from the idea they have said something ‘wrong’. It’s not incorrect so whoever indicated it was wrong needs to modify behaviour.

So - 'why are you called Mx' could be answered by: 'I believe that my inner feelings matter more than reality and that I am not classifiable by sex'. Or some other phrase.

This response might be appropriate for a group of teenagers. It would not be appropriate for a group of, say, 8-year-olds. They wouldn't understand it. They might be helped to understand it, if you broke it down into basic biological terms, although you might end up having to reference genital anatomy (in response to questions). This risks leading us into a safeguarding issue.

Additionally, the problem is that the trans movement is not rooted in empirical reality. There has to date been no peer-reviewed scientific paper of any kind which seeks to demonstrate credibly that "inner feelings matter more than reality" when it comes to sexual biology. (This is why trans belief is completely separate from homosexuality and no equivalence can be drawn with Section 28.)

Therefore, trans beliefs should not be presented to children as fact. And children should not be expected to adopt language which entails adopting a metaphysical belief as fact.

I agree with you that trans beliefs could be taught in PSE/RE classes, alongside Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism and so on. But it would have to be done in age appropriate ways. World religions can be taught without recourse to sexual anatomy, sexual surgery, sexual activities, etc. With the trans belief it is not so easy, depending on the age and temperament of your class.

Above all, it's about creating a child-centred learning environment. Telling a group of primary-aged children that 'I believe that my inner feelings matter more than reality and that I am not classifiable by sex' is not creating a learning environment centred around the child.

maybe I don’t feel like a girl either

The curriculum dictates, as you should well know if you are a teacher, that gender stereotypes should be broken and challenged so that no one is able to properly define what "feeling like a girl" is, unless directly linked to their biological sex.

Which is why the open dsd discussions are so awful for teens with dsds as they often learn that they're infertile during their teen years and all their dreams of being a mother can be shattered. Claire Graham who has a dsd, and was a teacher too, talks about this on her public Facebook page in a post from a couple of years ago. It's still near the top of the page as she left Facebook.

You are just proving my point. What does it matter what that person’s individual beliefs about gender are?

As long as they teach your child the curriculum, their personal life doesn’t matter to you.

Have you not thought that there may well be children in the class with parents or siblings who identify as non binary?

It is exactly like Section 28. The reason you don’t want children to be taught about it is you think they will think ‘ooh that sounds like a good idea, maybe I don’t feel like a girl either’. Just like in the 90s people thought their children might ‘catch’ gay.

No it's not.

What is the physical harm to realising you're gay?

There are physical harms involved with being non binary and trans and it's not something that should be self declared without medical supervision.

If NB isn't about medication, it's just a lifestyle, just the same as the rest of us. But allowed to participate in pride and seemingly talk a lot about relationships in over familiar and inappropriate ways, based on the OPs experiences.

All of this just makes me think of the madness around Section 28 back when I was at school.

It's a really false analogy. And demonstrates you don't understand the differences here. That was about being gay. About having a same sex relationship. You had children in classes had single gay parents who couldn't be mentioned. Gay teens feeling dirty and shunned for who they were attracted to.

What is non binary? I've never seen a clear definition. It's not a clinical diagnosis. So it's a belief or a trend.

Belief is tricky as one can't impose that on anyone, but they do with the they thems. And what do they actually believe? They don't have a sex? Or they don't have a 'gender?' It's a gender identity?

Most of us don't have a gender identity as we don't conform to gender stereotypes.

The further issue is that it's increasingly a trend/ belief that is leading young female actresses to get aesthetic mastectomies. Breastfeeding is barely ever discussed in school. Rates in the U.K. are horrifically low, and it can be seen a a form of self harm.

Do these teachers subscribe to this? Would they talk about it? "Promote" it? Is that appropriate? Same sex attraction doesn't involve these drastic surgeries and medications (some nbs micro dose hormones)

How do we define this NB idea/ belief?

Because of all the above, parents are very right to be concerned. No other recognised religious belief has the potential to cause such harms, bar FGM practices. Which is, as you know, police.

There also appears to be, across the board in many professions, a loss of professional standards as soon as the label of 'under the queer umbrella' is announced.

I genuinely would find it (and have) easier to work with a trans man than someone who claims to be non binary. I have and they were extremely professional.

It is exactly like Section 28. The reason you don’t want children to be taught about it is you think they will think ‘ooh that sounds like a good idea, maybe I don’t feel like a girl either’. Just like in the 90s people thought their children might ‘catch’ gay.

It does not follow that just because a teacher wants to be referred to with a certain title means they will use it to “set up a navel gazing club” or talk about their personal life. We have more important things to do, like getting on with the curriculum! Teachers are adept at shutting down personal questions and moving on. @ArabellaScott has given some good examples of the kind of things a teacher might say.

But people who are transgender/non-binary ARE part of that child’s empirical reality. Whether you like it or not, they are not going away. Children will come across it- in real life, on social media, on TV. So you trying to ‘protect’ them won’t work forever. Better that they have the issues explained to them by a trusted adult, or maybe that they realise through experience that trans/non-binary people are nothing to fear, normal people going about their day job.

I do agree with this. Children need to be taught - objectively - about different faiths and belief systems. So just as they learn about comparative religions and political views, they can be taught that while most people believe that there are two sexes, some people believe that inner feelings over-ride biological sex. Some people believe in cake-gender.

In fact I think it's very important for children to learn that there are people with illogical or outlandish beliefs, and that they learn how to live with them, treat them politely, and can expect respect for their own belief/s/lack of belief in return.

No. There are plenty of things that children will come across on social media or, eventually, in "real life" which are not appropriate for the learning environment.

Furthermore, in modern education, metaphysical beliefs are not typically taught as facts (and this is a good thing). They are explored as belief systems only (unless that's clear from the parameters of the school, e.g. we can expect that a Catholic School would teach the virgin birth as fact and parents have that reasonable expectation when they send their children there. In secular schools, parents can opt their children out of RE/PSE if they don't want their children exposed to a particular metaphysical belief).

There is no equivalence between Section 28 and the trans movement.

How is this treated when someone has a title that derives from a religious office? If someone is called 'Father' or 'Lama', for example? Surely we'd treat it in the same way? In my view its very similar. I teach my kids to be polite to people no matter what their beliefs. I also teach them critical thinking.

I'd say that so long as the teacher prefaces their answers with 'I believe' that is acceptable?

So - 'why are you called Mx' could be answered by: 'I believe that my inner feelings matter more than reality and that I am not classifiable by sex'. Or some other phrase.

'I believe in gender identity mattering more than sex'.
'I believe that changing my title will help to fight sexism'.
'I don't want to be seen as female'

etc

Belief in 'gender identity' over sex is a belief system. It's quite niche and only a minority subscribe to it, but I'm still willing to be respectful of it, just as I'm willing to be respectful of various religious belief systems that I don't share.

Yeah, I mean if teachers want to discuss their bespoke identities, they need to leave children out of it. Children and teen aren't (or shouldn't be) their peers so they need to set up navel gazing club where they can chat about the importance of pretending that biological sex isn't a thing with other adults and get their validation that way. Pupils and students are a captive audience for teachers. They shouldn't have that trust abused.

Sure and that’s why we need guidelines to safeguard children from non fact based ideology

If an adult is employed by the school to teach my child then I class them as a trusted adult.