Non Binary Teachers

@StephanieSuperpowers to play devils advocate then- I in no way agree with the Catholic Church. But a lot of my family are Catholic, I was brought up Catholic. When I come into contact occasionally with a family friend who is a priest I still call him Father John (not his real name!) To not address him as Father would be wholly disrespectful, but it doesn’t mean I condone his beliefs.

Phobias are fears. Questioning an ideology ( a whole set of ideas about how the world works) is not 'phobic'.

Very well put.

It is actually quite startling how many young people now mindlessly imbibe, without critical evaluation, such ideas wholesale.

Interestingly, in my own circles I’ve mostly encountered that attitude amongst middle aged women.
My teenagers seem much less inclined to accept the gender ideology without questioning than some of my friends.

So by being respectful of someone means you agree with their beliefs?
I call someone ‘Dr’ because they have been awarded a PHD. I don’t need to agree with what they tell me but I would always be respectful of what they want to be called. Always

Not necessarily, because calling people these things can signal that you're in agreement with the beliefs underpinning it, even if you aren't.

It's not just wrong, it's blatant gaslighting. "Don't believe what your eyes are seeing or what your ears are hearing and definitely don't believe your mind or your instincts, believe what I am telling you."

surely it’s just basic respect to treat people and address people by how they want to be named? Calling someone Mx literally makes no difference to your day whatsoever

and yes before anyone comes for me I understand the issues with trans women using women’s spaces but pronouns and non binary people is not related to this at all

So, to get this straight, you are saying that being asked to call someone ‘he’ who they thought was a ‘she’ will cause neurological damage to a child? Have I got that right?

Have you read the interim report from the Cass Review?
I hope that all teachers will read this when considering their views on preferred pronouns. The harms of social transition are referenced in the draft schools' guidance but reading the report really helps to crystallise what that means.

https://cass.independent-review.uk/publications/interim-report/

No, you've got that wrong. I said that object permanence, naming, categorisation are fundamental stages in children's neurological development and requiring that a child use language which does not match their empirical observation of the world risks damaging their neurological development. This is not a baseless assertion, it is one of the central tenets of child development theory.

My other observations around the difficulties many ND children encounter with pronouns are well known to teachers.

If a child in their class decided to identify as trans/non-binary would you instruct your child to ignore their chosen pronouns?

I would tell my child that they had a choice about the pronouns that they wanted to use. I would share with my child that I choose to use "preferred pronouns" with adults at work (or ideally I avoid pronouns completely), even though I don't share their belief that they have a gender identity. However, I never use preferred pronouns for a child... and this is where it all gets VERY messy.

I have had such conversations with my children, carefully over time.

My neurotypical child thinks the whole thing is too much effort and pointless. But she uses preferred pronouns with her friends because it's the "kind thing to do". She's not interested in why children are vulnerable in this, nor fully capable of understanding it. It's just a word, right? (Sarcasm). My neurodiverse child thinks talking about this topic is "transphobic" because she believes that it's true that everyone has a gender identity. She is the vulnerable one and I'm acutely aware that she is likely to be pulled further towards the impact of gender identity belief if she loses her trust in me. Therefore, most of what I do to support her is indirect, through her EHCP, the school and CAMHS. The effort this requires can not be overstated and it angers me that we're in this situation.

It cannot be stated loudly enough that social transition is not a neutral act and that it can lead to psychological harm. Not my words, but those of an expert in healthcare, Dr Hillary Cass. I really hope that this comes through loud and clear in the government guidance and that we see very few cases where children adopt preferred pronouns in school. This is a whole extra topic and there are other threads where this is discussed, so I'm reticent to say more here as it's a derail from the topic in hand about non-binary teachers.

@CantDealwithChristmas i am a professional educator. It’s my job. I am not a neuroscientist, it’s true. Are you?

So, to get this straight, you are saying that being asked to call someone ‘he’ who they thought was a ‘she’ will cause neurological damage to a child? Have I got that right?

I never used the word “compelled” or “forced”. At school we have certain students who use “they”, it’s never been an issue. We have one teacher who goes by “Mx”. Again, as far as I know, never been an issue.

With respect, it doesn't matter what you think, since your pedagogical knowledge is obviously not that of a professional educator or neuroscientist.

It's the needs of children and SEN children that matter.

That ND children and young people often have difficulty with pronouns is well-known. In addition, a few parents and teachers have included anecdotes on this thread.

That object cogency, permanence and naming are crucial stages in infantile and juvenile brain development is also well-known and research in this area has been building rapidly since Piaget laid the foundations.

That pronouns can cause difficulties for people whose first language is not English is of course obvious to anyone with even a cursory understanding of the Indo-European language families, which is probably most of us on this thread, so I won't go into that.

It's about the pupils and their educational needs, not adults and their egos.

Ah, so in your view children should be compelled by the school setting to refer to other children as "they". Right, so that is the same thing. Then it's wrong in both instances. If someone were to inclined to extend a courtesy requested of them, they certainly should, but they should never be forced to go along with this nonsensical fantasy.

I’m saying that in a school setting the same rule should apply to all. If you say children shouldn’t call a teacher who was born female “they” are you also saying they shouldn’t refer to a classmate as “they”?

Are you seriously now comparing choosing to use certain pronouns among friends and being compelled to use them by a person of authority?

@CantDealwithChristmas I think that argument is quite flimsy to be honest. Children are adaptable in their very nature and they can understand that if someone wants to be known as X then that is what they should call them. And, despite the protestations to the contrary, I have never come across a teacher who would chastise a student for a genuine mistake, they would just remind them.

Part of school is preparing children for the outside world. They will come across trans/non binary people in their life. Most likely in their peer group. If a child in their class decided to identify as trans/non-binary would you instruct your child to ignore their chosen pronouns?

Before I get shouted down, I am not a TRA, I believe in women only spaces, women only sports etc etc. I am not trying to “silence women” 🙄 But I also stand by what I said, to speak about non-binary people in such negative terms, framing it as “they all act this way/ they are trying to indoctrinate our children” is not helpful to the debate.

If that was aimed at me, then I am IMMENSELY PROUD that my daughter knows what a woman is, knows what biology is, stands up for the rights of women and girls and is not a weak feeble minded handmaiden who rolls over and acquiesces to the rights of confused males over the hard won rights of women and girls.

"Transphobia" is not standing up for reality and womens rights.

Forgot to add:
The lines are also blurry when only the title is used i.e. where no surname is added and children simply speak to or about their teacher using the title on its own. In secondary schools it's generally just "Sir" for all men and "Miss" for all women. There's a whole extra conversation around how annoying this is, given "Sir" sounds like reverance and "Miss" sounds like subordination. However, it prevails (presumably) because it simplifies things for children. My children have no idea whether their female teachers are a Miss, a Mrs or a Ms because to them all female teachers are "Miss". They just add a surname when the context requires it. I do suggest to them that it might be polite to find out but neither they nor the teachers seem to think it's important.
If men/women who identify as non-binary insist on being called "Mx" rather than "Sir"/"Miss" this is where it crosses the line yet again.

I wonder what happens if a teacher insists that "I am not Sir, I Mr Smith to you". If that's OK, then logically "I am not Sir, I am Mx to you" is OK too. But insisting on the pronoun "they" is on the other side of the line.

This is probably something schools need to think about when considering the new guidance, and perhaps something that the government could address when they release the final version.

It's not so much the title. It's the requirement that children should deny the reality of their own eyes - ie that a woman is in fact something else.

This naturally leads on to age inappropriate areas around sex and sexuality.

It also risks damaging children's neurological development. The ability to name the observed world around them and be confident that the object is as named, is a crucial part of brain development.

Insisting that children partake in a lie by forced compliance, and ignore accurate visual evidence, is also discriminatory against children who may have an innate difficulty in complying with the lie e.g. children on the autism spectrum, neurodivergent children, children with learning difficulties, children with speech difficulties and children whose first language is not English.

They won't have this at private school, that's for sure.

What a dire time to be alive. We have passed the point of peak comfort as humans and literally have nothing to do. This is the state you end up in.

We need some real problems, I'd actually welcome some sort of heavy global crisis so people have real things to worry about.

I'm a teacher. I don't think it's inappropriate. I think it's concerning what her daughter is saying.

Me too. It's inappropriate and, frankly, immature. This obsession with self-validation and making everything about you and your identity is teenage behaviour tbh.

"A lot of time in classes is spent trying to imprint their opinions on us and they go off topic.

OP, your daughter's descriptions remind me of the worst A-level teacher I ever had, who diverted all subject discussions to his opinion of US foreign policy. It's exactly the same pattern of behaviour, except that gender is the teacher's obsession, rather than any political party. It later turned out that he'd been having a sexual relationship with a girl in his GCSE resit class. She was 18 and it was legal, but in no way was it an ethical state of affairs. Even for an 18 year old, she was malleable and easily manipulated.

I don't think he'd get away with inserting his obsession with American politics into every single class today, but would he be able to behave the same way, only focusing on gender instead?

Go ahead and ask them. Start a thread that you're interested in.

Just to be sure, this is one student's opinion of 3 individuals?

Has one of the individuals been asked to comment on 3 students, referring to the 3 as, "They all..."

From the very anecdotal few posts on this thread, male NB teachers appear to be better at not crossing boundaries around discussions of sexuality and relationships with pupils. Because i think it would be noted more readily and seen as more creepy by female pupils.

I'm noting it as an issue that it is another way that gender ideology dismantles boundaries. When women are delivering the messages it comes across less harmful than men. It's why mermaids has female front facing staff, including transmen. No trans women.

The OP's daughter has noted some really relevant issues with these teachers around boundaries and appropriateness.

I do think it's possible separate out unnecessary judgments about appearance but not about behaviour. Though, the observations about appearance communicate a hypocrisy to the pupils (still dressing in gender conforming ways) which is why they're noticing them I assume.