Why are women so complacent re. trans nonsense?

Even when they look like men?

I think what's supposed to happen is he says the magic words and instantly becomes a fey little creature who can't even open a crisp packet and if anything, is at more risk of sustaining than inflicting injury.

Sports for example - OK biological males should not be competing in female sports. Also a fact is that many transpeople love sports. When radical posters discuss sports, their line is: no males (fine) and then when asked about potential opportunities/categories for transpeople - the answer is "not my/our problem". And that's the issue - there's no discussion on how we can all achieve fairness and safety for everyone together. We are all people and yes there is an element of "be kind" - it is a fact that there are transpeople who have trained and love sport and end up with no place to do it - if you can't be sympathetic to that because you are only concerned with girls/women, then that is a problem when we try to work these things out

Actually a number of sporting events/governing bodies have offered non binary categories but the take up has been very poor or in some instances actually zero. The cynic in me suspects that when transwomen lose their physical advantage in women's sports they are not interested in playing anymore and half the reason for their participation was for affirmstion. Again it should not be up to woman to find or offer solutions to trans participation while the men's events soldier on unaffected. There should be zero compromise on safety and fairness for women's sports.

I'm watching the Leicester v Leinster rugby game on the telly right now. Leinster and Ireland prop Tadhg Furlong weighs 130kg, by comparison England womans scrum half is 55kg. If Furlong decided he is in fact a woman and wanted to continue his international career what middle ground do you suggest that would allow him/her to play against women? Yes, world rugby have already banned transwomen from playing with biological women and yes it is an extreme example but TRAs were seriously arguing that this scenario would not present an issue.

True that @Truthlikeness the proverbial inch was used to take a mile so now it’s just a flat no!

Hockey has a mixed version but that’s not good enough for TW players who insist on playing on women’s teams with predictable results
https://reduxx.info/exclusive-trans-identified-male-playing-in-womens-field-hockey-club-injured-female-player/

That’s fine as long as you know that means trans men will be accessing women’s toilets.

Most transmen I know use the cubicles in the mens. And you know what, nothing happens.

Changing rooms, they use single cubicle or change at home. They make it work so not to upset anyone. Like nice people do

A large number of sport also have mixed versions - formal or informal, so there are lots of options for trans people to play sport outside of women's sports.

I do agree that GCs tend to be hardline, but we have generally come to that position from starting off being accommodating and learning the lesson of where that gets us.

Here's an opportunity (aside from competing in their own sex class) which was offered, in order to make sports fair and safe for women. Not one competitor applied -

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/swimming/2023/10/03/swimming-transgender-athletes-open-category-scrapped/

Same thing with third spaces (I.e. gender neutral toilets and changing rooms as well as single sex provision). Dismissed by TRA's as 'transphobic and othering'.

You realise very quickly that there's no middle ground, or accommodations or other options which are acceptable, besides total capitulation.

O don't see why it's not OK for women to be interested in the rights, safety and dignity of women and girls and not especially interested in making way for males.

And yes as a feminist by definition I’m concerned about women and girls

it is a fact that there are transpeople who have trained and love sport and end up with no place to do it

that’s simply not true though is it? Biological men can play on men’s teams. It’s not women’s problem if men are not accepting of them. Why don’t TRA spend any time shouting at men for failing to be inclusive? What is it always women who have to give up their places & spaces?

Many people live life without being involved in competitive sports, prisons or homeless shelters or using public changing rooms/toilets. So it doesn't impact their life - that's not being complacent, that's dealing with the immediate things that are relevant to oneself.

Furthermore, and I'll expect a flaming for this (which will just illustrate my point), GC/Radfem posters can be absolutely zero tolerance/hard line on issues concerning girls/women - without actually considering the specifics of an individual case. I personally know someone born male, had all the top and bottom surgery and some facial surgery, presents, passes and lives as female. This person isn't any kind of risk to girls/women and isn't taking anything from girls/women. But any rights to do with this individual are dismissed by radical posters as "male" and irrelevant.

Things work out when people work together. They don't work out when you have extremists from 2 different sides fighting each other.

Sports for example - OK biological males should not be competing in female sports. Also a fact is that many transpeople love sports. When radical posters discuss sports, their line is: no males (fine) and then when asked about potential opportunities/categories for transpeople - the answer is "not my/our problem". And that's the issue - there's no discussion on how we can all achieve fairness and safety for everyone together. We are all people and yes there is an element of "be kind" - it is a fact that there are transpeople who have trained and love sport and end up with no place to do it - if you can't be sympathetic to that because you are only concerned with girls/women, then that is a problem when we try to work these things out.

Trans men are women so that’s fine @pointbreak77

Yes, biological women in women's toilets. We do understand that. Figured it out all by ourselves, too.

That’s fine as long as you know that means trans men will be accessing women’s toilets.

TheCadoganArms · Today 15:27

It was the sporting aspect that first pulled me properly into this debate.

Likewise; I was trying to find ways to get my then 5 year old daughter into sports and got lots of:

"Don't bother, Rachel McKinnon."

I was completely boggled and went down a internet rabbit hole and saw the rest of it.

This new batshit of pretending men have no sporting advantage or men are suddenly harmless if they claim to be women and no one would possibly take advantage, and the blatant removal of female sex based protections to accommodate men's feelings is just fucking absurd.

It was the sporting aspect that first pulled me properly into this debate. There are still morons, despite all the readily available peer reviewed evidence, that think men have no physical advantage or that if there is it can be mitigated against by suppressing testosterone levels. Let's ignore the height, reach, grip strength, larger cardio vascular systems, muscle mass etc and instead focus on the hurt feelings of some man who wants to be his authentic self. All the women down my club, old and young, were bloody furious with the governing body's 'trans inclusive' stance and they eventually changed it after much lobbying. Women's sports being treated as a vehicle for affirmation or as an opportunity for middleaged average male athletes to be competitive against women half their age is a disgrace. And that is just the fairness aspect before we even address changing rooms and safeguarding.

Why not though? Why can't the men 'be kind' and make space for all the men with a 'gender identity'?

Quite. Women aren't -

Human shields
Support humans
Non Player Characters
Everyone's Mum

I don't think it's right to use this kind of emotional blackmail against women. It's how we are where we are.

Equal and interlinked: tribalism; a general preference for emotion over intellectual rigour; and therefore individual 'stories' over population-level principles; the mental health crisis. Those things bolstered by the desperate capitalism of trying to find or create new markets who will want to consume to show how well they fit in. Bolstered too by social media obviously, and the power of advertising and corporate tickboxing for 'social responsibility'.
And aside from the obvious danger - to women's rights - there's the insidious danger of the misuse of language. If someone whose sense of self is interwoven with left-wing principles, is told they're a 'fascist', it's even harder to go against the grain.
It's the modern equivalent of 60s 'reds under the bed' or 80s 'loonie lefties' to shut down debate.

Where do the transwomen go, because they can't go with the men?

Why not though? Why can't the men 'be kind' and make space for all the men with a 'gender identity'?

What needs to happen is the clear distinction of sex and 'gender' and that a person's personal presentation or claims of a gender identity does not entitle them to things specifically for the opposite sex.
No one should be forced to go along with gender identity ideology.

I give no shits if a man wants to wear a dress or make up. I give a shit if he demands that his appearance or his feelings somehow make him any type of woman and that this should be written into law to force women to comply with his sexist idea of womanhood.

This new batshit of pretending men have no sporting advantage or men are suddenly harmless if they claim to be women and no one would possibly take advantage, and the blatant removal of female sex based protections to accommodate men's feelings is just fucking absurd.

How can people not see the misogyny in men redefining our actual sex class?
Men once again telling us what a woman is based on sexist stereotypes.
The oppressor has all the power. Women no longer allowed to define woman without 'including' men.

How can people not see the utter homophobia in a man claiming to be a lesbian?

How can people go along with the nonsense that some men are 'oppressed' by not having access to women's spaces and sports, or because they want to perform feminine stereotypes?

If it were just the horrifically regressive and sexist notion that likening pink and dresses is what makes you a girl/woman. Then I’d stay and fight that from within the organisation.

but safeguarding. And for that reason, I’m out.

Yes, I think you initially missed the crucial point here Lavender, that GGUK was (is) insisting that young males who say they’re girls “ARE” girls and should be treated as if they were female in every respect including sharing sleeping accommodation and washing facilities with the actual girls.

And that even raising that as an issue would be horrifically transphobic, wanting to advise the girls or their parents unforgivably so.

Again and again and again the point is not that these young people are trans but that they're male.

And everybody is supposed to collude with the pretence that they’re not.

Short sighted is one way of putting it, for sure.

When it comes to children who ID as trans there are very clear differences between those who are female and ID as boys/bois/nonbinary/whatever and those who are male and ID as girls/whatever. Different needs. Different risks. Different sexes.

They are applying to girl guiding because they are trans and as per the organisational stance fit the bill to be there as they are living their life as a female child. So refusing to work with them is because they are trans. They wouldn't be asking to use the service in the first place if they weren't

What does 'living their life as a female child' mean? IME it meant puberty, periods, navigating sexism and harmful gendered stereotypes.

What effect does it have on girls, do you think, to tell them that if a boy has long hair and wears make up and a skirt he is 'living his life as a female child'?

thank you!

(edit to add) both of you