Why are women so complacent re. trans nonsense?

This is a really interesting discussion that does seem to have been slightly derailed by a person who isn't even posting (Josette's partner!). I just wanted to say that it's not really about how that particular transman passes at the supermarket or at the dentist... but if they went to prison, I would be fighting hard to ensure they did NOT go to a male prison.

Nice well-socialised women may accept that the transman passes....but I assure you that male prisoners will NOT uphold that polite fiction. A transman would be at huge risk in a male prison, and that's why they go to female prisons regardless of how well they pass.

I understand on the individual level a person who does not want the reality of lesbianism being female exclusively attracted to females to be discussed as it interferes with their self definition of chosen and preferred sex.

But it's because of individuals wanting to set aside 'genitals' that as a lesbian (a homosexual female, I've pretty much abandoned the term lesbian due to genderist harassment) I'm pressured to 'learn to cope' with providing sex to men who wish to identify as lesbians and train myself to ignore their physical reality. And told I'm shameful and to be correctively raped or kerb stomped if I resist this abusive batshit. And that I'm being homophobic if I state that a person is a man however he wishes me to pretend otherwise.

Individual people's distressed feelings are not a reason to enable this kind of abuse and harm to others. Appeals to care about the feelings of one person require the feelings of others to be worthless and subordinated.

It's a trojan horse, as PP says.

If your partner truly passes as a man @Josette77, why would there be any danger of them being misgendered by the women here?

@Josette77 With all due respect, I'm not sure trans men will ever feel supported by people who insist on calling them women.

This comment sums up for me the way your partner has been manipulated by this insistence that language and 'respect for pronouns' is so important.

It means nothing, does it, that I say I would stand up for your partner's rights, that I am terrified at the thought of how vulnerable women are making themselves when they change their sex marker to male because it makes them feel 'seen as they truly are' or whatever reason - it's all sparkles and rainbows and acceptance - no thought of when things go wrong, of when they are knocked unconscious and end up getting the wrong treatment for their female body or are arrested on holiday and find themselves being thrown in a cell with a bunch of men.

All that matters is that I say he not she. Do you think the people who dutifully validate your partner's 'male identity' actually care? Will they be there if things ever do go wrong? It's all performative and superficial, done to make them feel great about themselves. And it doesn't matter how much you chastise or try to guilt trip. I will still say she and I will still be there for all women, no matter how they identify.

Passing does not make your partner a man. biology does. What you see as respect is actually a trojan horse for an ideology which I and most others find dangerous and disrespectful. Individualism can only take us so far. Your partner's desire to be a man does not trump everyone else's needs.

And 'mummy' in the worst, most powerless and vile sense that MNetters spend a lot of time resisting, based on poor boundaries and other people's poor behaviour. The kind of downtrodden mummy who looks selflessly after everyone but has no needs of her own. Who eats last from the scraps after ensuring everyone else is fed. Who has no internal life or desires or function beyond providing for baby. Who isn't a person, is a walking service unit. Who is there to lose constantly so that others may win. And does this gladly with a smile on her face.

It's the warped way a very young child sees Mummy; anyone sustaining this very, very grim view of women past very early childhood has a problem. And Mummy needs a firm talking to about learning about boundaries and not enabling bloody awful abusive behaviour. The relationships board will provide her with tough love and a lot of support.

Women have lost jobs, friends, family members, many of us have lost faith in out society, politics, media, police, justice system, and academia.

All of this for not being willing to submit, toe the line, mouth the mantras, use the proscribed words, be quiet, use the nice pronouns, let the special men into our spaces, our sports, our groups.

Throughout this we've argued with data, research, evidence, mostly politely although I admit a bit sweary.

So yes, its a wee bit absurd to have people still now telling us we are not being 'welcoming' or nice enough.

Anyone asking the balaclava wearing spittle flecked lads who terrorise and heckle women meetings to be nicer and more welcoming?

Or is it just us expected to be everyone's mums, again?

Exactly! All the research we have shows that when women draw attention to their sex at work eg through pronouns it has an adverse effect

but TW being male don’t care about that. They just expect women to make things worse for themselves so that men feel better

and wasn’t it ever thus?

Basically, refusing to be coercively controlled.

Absolutely, Wellies.

I honestly believe that people who have accepted a belief in the concept of gender do not realise quite how much those of us who don't are being expected to change our speech and the way we talk about our own beliefs, how often a very simple statement or word is jumped on as being heretical.

Yes.

The rules are inconsistently applied because this is a power grab. Some people are allowed to speak freely, make mistakes and say verboten things. They are 'queering' discourse and being bold.

Other people are fascist scum, bigots, and terfs who deserve to be punched.

We have had a transwoman stand onstage at an event and openly call for terfs to be punched in the face. Politicians stand grinning beneath a sign that says 'decapitate terfs'. Smoke bombs, physical attacks, death threats, rape threats, pilloried and smeared by politicians, media figures and the police.

The crime of women being called 'terfs'?

Refusing to use certain pronouns. Refusing to agree that people can or have changed sex. Refusing to stop wearing pussy hats or talking about breastfeeding or asking for single sex services for rape victims.

Whilst I understand your partner has a whole set of issues to navigate in regard to healthcare, services and sports, this just comes across as a bit smokes and mirrors to the issue of why so many women do not seem to care about losing their rights. My experience is it certainly not the transmen creating problems. Their socialisation of being raised with the feminine cultural expectations means they seem to be able to handle situations with respect for others.

Unlike their male counterparts who are gunning for the legal erosion of womens boundaries.

Back to the women who support trans rights, if you do see the conflict between single sex excluding transwomen and mixed sex excluding many women, what is your solution to this?

I think it' easy to get bogged down in words - who's using what pronouns, correctly or incorrectly, respect or disrespect for identity, focus or not focus on genitals.

What are we arguing for? - I think we are arguing for the right to our own beliefs. My belief is that there are males and females. Some males and some females believe they have a particular identity which sets them apart from others. I would respect an individual if they were known to me, who believed this, up to a point, but I make no pretence of being any more interested than in the deeper spiritual feelings of my religious friends. I have never pretended to believe in God to spare their feelings and I don't think they would expect me to.

We are also arguing for women's rights.

If most people in this discussion are in agreement that women should have single sex spaces and other rights based on our sex, (which includes transmen), I think most of the disagreement is about the former point - which is a really important one. I know we may be in different countries, but I assume most of us are in liberal societies where we have the right to hold our own beliefs and express opinions freely. I honestly believe that people who have accepted a belief in the concept of gender do not realise quite how much those of us who don't are being expected to change our speech and the way we talk about our own beliefs, how often a very simple statement or word is jumped on as being heretical.

There are many reasons why women are so complacent about this, but another which just occurred to me is that some people love following rules. They love the security of knowing what to say, the correct opinion to have, and even more, they love to see others chastised for slipping up when they have been praised for getting it right. They have now been trained in the new ideas and language and have totally missed the opt out clause.

With all due respect, I'm not sure trans men will ever feel supported by people who insist on calling them women.

I wonder if you see all support as being predicated on agreement? It seems that you are unable to consider that women can disagree and still be supportive of each other.

Mothers are very used to disagreement while based in and maintaining a positive sense of regard and general supportive and caring feelings.

Some women would no more 'affirm' a trans identity than they would affirm an anorexic's claim to be fat.

*Referring to my partner as a woman and a lesbian is referring to their genitalia."

I don't get it. There's a whole female body involved here, not just 'genitalia'. Ovaries, a womb, a female response to medications, female height and build and hand size and browbone and jawline, the experience of being born a girl. And anyone referring to your partner as a man isn't 'referring to male genitalia'.

OK, sorry, I've reread and i can see that referring to you as a lesbian couple might involve thinking about genitalia. I prefer a decent privacy over anyone's love life bar my own, though, so hadn't got that far.

My partner is a transman who passes. No one would ever think he's not a male unless you saw him naked.

I respect your opinion..

I don't think it's necessarily helpful in opening up these conversations to include other women, but you have every right to feel as you do.

It isn't. A person's sex is clear from their secondary sexual characteristics.. we don't have to think about what's in someone's pants to know if they're a man or woman.

Can you tell me where we disagree then?
I'm not sure I understand what beliefs I have that you disagree with?

Are you me? Sounds exactly like my thought process.

"I see you have gone through my statements point by point but I can't see where I have disagreed with you"?

You seriously cannot see that? I am not sure what else I can do then. I don't even believe that, unless you are being purposefully obtuse.

"I don't believe Transwomen are biological women".

I didn't say you did, I said the issue is that many think they are women. So this is yet another strawman from you.

"Can you respond to what I've said without that premise"?

Given that that isn't my premise, no.

"And while mocking my questions, you don't seem to have given them any actual response"?

Hard to give an actual response to points that are strawmen and logically flawed.

And I respectfully disagree that I should lie about someone's biological sex. Who is being respectful to most people?

I respectfully disagree with the need to refer to him this way.

That sounds incredibly hard and I hear your sadness and pain. It must feel in some ways like you are losing a child, who you clearly deeply love.

I think your shared history is incredibly important. You have raised a child who feels comfortable enough around you to share how they feel. That is something to be very proud of as a father.

I hope you will be able to get support for your grief and that you both will be able to feel heard and respected by eachother. It sounds like at the core there is a lot of love between you.

Referring to my partner as a woman and a lesbian is referring to their genitalia.

Not really. It's referring to their sex, not their body.

Im sorry this stuff drives a wedge in many families.