Why are women so complacent re. trans nonsense?

I think lots of people care about them. I care about them. I can also care about trans people.

I don't see it as one or the other.

In fact many trans people care about these issues. The don't believe in hormones for children. They are speaking out. They are allies.

Some of us are grateful to them ( as I said Blair White was a Godsend).

I think deliberately calling him my girlfriend is rude.

I don't think calling a transperson by the gender they prefer is asking too much.

There's a big difference between:

Trans women are real women.
Trans women are men.
And Trans women are trans women.

He's a transman. I don't see how insisting he can't be trans and must be a woman helps anyone?

These arguments are interesting.

We see these in the black community too. If you're like Candace Owens you must be a self hating African American. We must all share one brain or hate ourselves.

People have different opinions based on experience.

Me being a woman doesn't mean I have to agree with every opinion on here. I think we can all do better.

I don’t understand the accusation of “faux outrage” at it all being bullshit. When it wasn’t close to home for me, it was easy to ignore the facts. But when my son is, apparently (though he never actually says what he thinks or believes), pretending to be a woman, and demands that I do so, I do find it outrageous. It is absolutely bullshit and it has messed up our family, and in trying to understand it, I have come across literally dozens of the other people it has distressed and messed up. I am very worried about what he will do to his healthy body.

As for the even more outrageous demands of the trans rights activists, that we all lie and give them rights that we give no-one else! And the women whose fears are ignored, and whose jobs turn into nightmares, and whose marriages are destroyed, and whose hopes are trampled all over? Well, who cares about them?

A supposedly feminist forum bemoaning that some women are capable of independent thought.

What does respecting your partner as a transpersonal actually mean to you? what do you want people to do?

I do wonder too if, to buy the TWAW rhetoric, you have to have pretty old fashioned ideas about what men and women are like/ should wear/do. Surely people who think in a more modern way can't believe in some sort of women essence which then somehow men can have.

Maybe because everything is too black and white on this?

You can be kind and not want trans women in women's sports.

I've said before on here my partner is a trans man. I didn't see myself falling in love with someone trans but here we are. 😉

Him and I agree with all of your above. In fact if you go on YouTube you'll find quite a few voices from Trans women who agree with you. Blair White is my favourite. There was a trans woman who even testified here on behalf of Jordan Peterson.

The thing is it's hard for conversations like these because it seems all or nothing.

For me to agree with above on MN at least means my boyfriend gets called delusional and my girlfriend. He's a trans man. He's not a biological man. We both get that. But respecting him a transperson also doesn't happen.

There's the faux outrage about it all being bullshit on here and that makes women who are like me not want to engage.

I can recognize the injustice on both sides. Unfortunately there doesn't seem a place for women like me.

Too right for the left, and too left for the right.

Sadly I don't think anyone wins in this.

It's too bad because there are actually trans allies out there but on mumsnet at least they would not be a welcome voice.

I imagine we could all be assets to each other. Many trans women and men don't want to be lumped in with performative outrage and demands of certain trans people.

I wish there was more of a welcome middle ground.

Both no 1 and no 4 are about girls/women kowtowing to men.
It is baffling.

No 4 is astonishing as even if it were only being prudish that should be more than a good enough reason. Prudes want to swim too! Rights for prudes.
My New Battlecry.

But bearing in mind it is for safety … ach, I’d love to be such an innocent blossom again. Sadly, rape and attempted murder (not at the same time) tend to make you a bit skittish around men in enclosed spaces when you are in a state of undress. Funny that.
I know I SHOULD reframe my trauma, but have decided to embrace my inner Prude instead.
(So fuck those people).

I agree Wellies that it is not ‘anti-trans’ to discuss this. I think it takes some deeply entrenched prejudice to think that the discussions on here are anti-trans. And it points to someone either heavily invested in a belief about gender identity or someone with a very superficial understanding of the discussions taking place here.

Certainly those mothers who have allowed or even encouraged their children to be treated with puberty blockers and cross sex hormones for their mental health problems will be in absolute denial against anyone suggesting that doing so will have caused sterility without necessarily giving any long term mental health benefits.

For those parents, women pointing out the paucity of evidence supporting that pathway could easily be painted as hateful as the alternative must be unbearable.

And of course, such parents will see resistance against the societal changes that their children have taught them are necessary for their happiness as despicable. Having invested everything in this ideology for their child, backing out must be impossible.

Privilege/middle/upper class nonsense. Desperate pick me behaviour. Maybe if they side with the men, they won't be the woman assaulted, raped, affected.

Sometimes, it is just straight up stupidity.

@AmethystSparkles As a parent you have a responsibility to make judgements in the way you care for your child. It is terrifying when your child is experiencing distress and you don't know what to do but you have to do your best to protect them. Children are being groomed into thinking they need to alter their bodies in harmful and irreversible ways and there has to be support to enable parents to find a way through this and to resist allowing this to happen. They must be empowered to say 'NO'.

It is not anti trans to speak about this. It is our responsibility to say loudly and clearly that to lie to children that they can change sex is wrong. We must be clear that there is an alternative and we must counter the harmful narrative that children will be happier if they 'transition'. It has to become socially unacceptable to say that you think your child is 'questioning their gender'.

I feel sorry for parents who were bullied or coerced into following that path but we must limit the future harm to children by speaking the truth.

I think for some women who are left wing politically there’s a tendency to automatically side with who they perceive to be the underdog.

And at a glance it can appear that trans people are the underdog - they’re a minority, they face particular struggles etc. And so a well meaning leftie who’s not actually stopped to think through the complexity of the issue can fall into this way of thinking.

"I didn't think the leopards would eat my face", after voting for the "Leopards eating people's faces party".

Because they don't think it will affect them. Simple as that.

They all know TWANW btw, they're just happy to lie about it to #bekind.

What's anti-trans? Do you have any examples?

You’re right that the issue shouldn’t be ignored.

However, you must surely understand that there are many mothers on here with trans teenagers who feel alienated by the anti trans brigade on here? I’m not one of them btw.

This is the only half decent answer I could sort of understand.

I had a long discussion on a forum where I occasionally discuss things with others from my profession. It’s a science based profession where sex is important and you’d assume most ought to take a logical view and I’d say there were more of us arguing the view that so-called “transwomen” are men and don’t belong in women’s spaces ever than were making transactivist arguments.

There was one younger man who was very TWAW, but without making anny real points and that didn’t surprise me. He’s always seemed left wing and idealistic and probably was in the “hasn’t really thought about it hard and thinks he supports women’s rights in theoretical terms without listening to women” group.

The one that shocked me was a woman about my age, perhaps a bit younger, who was vehemently in favour of gender identity replacing sex in all circumstances.

We discussed Will Thomas’s actions in women’s swimming and invasion of the changing room. To my shock, she actually gave point 1 and said that if her daughter was in the situation of those young women, she would expect her to embrace the situation and understand that including Thomas was more important than winning.

I cannot imagine, as a mother, ever being such a surrendered woman that I would ever put any selfish man over my daughter, but she said she would.

Honestly, I’m angry just thinking about it. If my daughter came to me in distress because there was a man with an erection in the changing room and unfairly beating her in the swimming pool when she’d spent her life working towards that goal, I would not in a million years let her down by siding with the man. How betrayed would the daughter feel in those circumstances?

I’d better stop now, but really it was an eye opener for me that a woman I previously thought fairly reasonable was completely in thrall to the trans agenda. I cannot understand her position in the slightest.

I’ve found this as well from some people who’ve really surprised me by not even slightly acknowledging there might be some conflict with self ID and women’s rights. These are highly educated women who would absolutely regard themselves as feminists.

Equally I’ve been surprised by others who I would have thought would be full on TWAW who have been very much the opposite.

I feel that some people live in a complete bubble, when I mentioned an article in the telegraph, one of my #BeKind friends said oh good god I’d never read that. They don't, they read the Guardian and BBC only and follow all the “right” people on Twitter.

@CheeseSandwichRiskAssessment yes, true.

Many are aware of this privilege, it's lacking the empathy to see past your own experiences that's the issue.

They think they'll be protected as long as they don't rock the boat.

Exactly, and they can only maintain this when they don't think about it, so they bat it away.

Like the PP's said. Privilege. Women who thankfully haven't been raped, put into a prison or competed in a sport won't know the detrimental effects TW have on these. Privilege that they don't know they possess.

Thankfully, I hear a lot less of this these days. A number of friends and acquaintances have had their eyes opened over the last year or so. Just as well, as I’d struggle not to insult the intelligence of someone who came out with your second example and therefore presumably hadn’t twigged that you could say exactly the same to a TW headed to jail.

Same old scenario of prioritising this one group over women’s concerns, while adding insult to injury by accusing us of hatred/ignorance/being easily led by the right wing.

The tide does seem to be turning on the forced acceptance of trans ideology, but the same base misogyny that allowed it to go as far as it did has gone nowhere. That women are - and must be shamed into being, if necessary - the kind, accommodating and passive half of humanity is part of that.

They think they'll be protected as long as they don't rock the boat.