Why are women so complacent re. trans nonsense?

I think that’s definitely it for some - I was talking to someone just like this the other day. A lovely person in lots of ways but shockingly naive, to the point of being bigoted in her own way.

She went full Layla Moran when I asked her how she could distinguish between “genuine” “TW” and predators exploiting the loophole (who she had acknowledged exist) and said quite angrily, you can just sense these things, you can see it in their eyes!

She said she genuinely wouldn’t have a problem getting changed/showering alongside a penis bearer - and I know she regularly uses a facility which is all completely open plan - because if he identifies as a woman, he is a woman, afasc.

But couldn’t say what a woman is, of course.

She also, interestingly, thought it was impossible for gay men to be misogynistic. I remember thinking that gay men were all allies to women myself - because they didn’t want to sleep with us and often got treated like crap by men themselves, I guess.

But that was a very long time ago and I was very young when I thought that; experience soon taught me that while some gay men are utterly lovely, there are others whose misogyny is quite breathtaking.

I was surprised that she as a middle aged woman hadn’t got to that realisation.

Maybe that’s part of it. She seemed to pride herself on having lots of “LGBTQ” friends, including of course the obligatory “my lovely trans friends™️”; maybe she’s been exceptionally lucky in her male friends.

Or maybe she just doesn’t always realise when her male friends are taking the piss/using her. I had a gay male BFF I thought the world of for years, until I finally copped onto the fact that I, like all the other women in his life, was just a service human to him.

As you say, Wellies, these women have no clue!

In my own experience I think because sometimes things can be true at the same time and women are not a monolith.

Women can believe that trans women are women, they likely know trans women who they know to be good and genuine people which helps form that opinion. They can empathise with the desire to be seen as female, can recognise that gender dysphoria would be distressing to experience and see people living happier better lives as their chosen gender. They don't want to see those people hurt or suffering. I fall into this category and I've never met a trans man or woman who I felt to be anything less than genuine and lovely people. I've known them through their transition and I've seen the massive improvement in their mental health post transition. I find that a lot of gc forums focus a lot on the negatives around transition and they leave out that for a lot of people it actually works very well for them. I find it sad when that comes at the expense of their family though. Or where it leaves them vulnerable due to loss of those support networks.

Simultaneously they can also recognise that other women may struggle with this and it can cause challenges in female only spaces predominantly because of harmful men who may exploit the concept of being trans to meet their own harmful needs at the expense of women.

But they struggle to engage with GC platforms because of the vitriol that exists against trans women (i know trans people can be vitriolic against gc women too - it works both ways) and they find it offensive and see the harm that can cause to the genuine and decent trans people they know in real life and don't want to be a part of that. So there is no space for them and they can't engage in the conversation without being shut out of it. I've never felt welcomed or like my point of view was respected or welcomed in such a platform, it's always a pile on to convince me I'm wrong. I know all the arguments, I've read the information and I've formed my own opinion. So I guess you'd see me as complacent.

I just take issue with posts like this that use the term ' trans nonsense' and other offensive terms and opinions being presented as fact in disrespectful ways which I see happen all the time in these types of forums. Sometimes it's not so much a complacency, as feeling stuck. I don't think it's acceptable for women to feel unsafe in a homeless shelter for example, but I also don't think it's acceptable that trans people feel unable to access any homeless accommodation because they aren't safe in men's shelters and don't feel they fit in womens shelters. Noone should be left homeless and vulnerable.

I also massively take issue with the issue that this is really only an argument that affects trans people who don't 'pass' as their chosen gender. I know a number of trans people who absolutely do pass and it would be nonsensical to place them in a womens shelter for example. The bathroom issue is a prime example for this as well. So really the entire argument comes down to appearance and I'm not comfortable with judging people based on their appearance. I don't feel it's enforceable in that respect unless everyone has individual non cubicle toilets in public spaces which again isn't realistic for many businesses due to space. So I don't feel that I've arrived at a suitable solution that meets all needs.

What makes you think men have less power than women?

More women than you think as demonstrated on threads here. Most of us come here because we have had bad experiences with gender ideology or people claiming to be transgender.

The reasin I say 'people claiming' is because my experiences are with people who are part of the new self id transgender as opposed to the older generation of transsexuals.

I also don't think these people have less power. The policies and defence of these people by organisations and the casual put downs of women to shut up and put up shows this. A compromise is never offered.

How many of you have ever had a real life negative encounter with a trans person?

Not that it would justify the vitriol, it’s the question I always ask people who are claiming the problem is the people with less power than them, not those with more.

Why not use on a school curriculum?

Oh maybe it's because so many 'teachers' are brainwashed idiots not fit to teach our youngsters?

Partner is labeled as a man on his ID so if he was arrested he'd be treated as a man. I don't love that.

If it were up to me matching genitals would go together. That means Transwomen with penis with men, and Transwomen who've had bottom surgery with women.

I think in terms of washrooms it's not necessarily naivete. I was a childhood sexual abuse survivor and a rape victim. I never have a sense of security anywhere. If a man wants to hurt women and children nothing will stop that.

Reminds me of a post on here some time ago, poster said she didn't want to share a bathroom with men no matter how they identify and another poster said, you share a bathroom with your dh don't you? Yes because that's the same. 🙄

No one wants trans people to not have anywhere to pee. They're welcome to use the toilets for their sex class. Are you suggesting though that we should just have mixed sex toilets given that apparently anyone can go into either toilet anytime they want?

I'm more affected by the changing room one. I've recently had to stop using the leisure centre I really liked, that offered affordable and great quality classes, at times I could access.

I had to stop because being an older building they only have communal changing rooms, so a large room with benches and lockers for women and a large room with benches and lockers for men.

They confirmed recently that their policy is that a woman is anyone who says they're a woman.

Through my personal choice and my level of comfort/dignity/privacy, the only man who has ever seen me naked is my husband. So now I know that a man could walk into the womens changing room as and when they like, I can't use it. I also would never take my 9yo daughter to get changed in a room that any man can walk into as he pleases and expose his penis to her with the full permission of the Business.

They could do this already though. I was in a women's toilet in a service station today. There were two men in there. They were cleaners. No one batted an eyelid because this is an absolutely normal sight. There isn't anything preventing men entering women's spaces currently, they can easily pretend to be someone who has a right to be there without pretending to be trans, or they can just walk in without bothering to pretend anything, and in practise that's what most predators would do. And it's still illegal to harass or assault someone in a toilet whether you're supposed to be in there or not, and you wouldn't escape prosecution for that by "crying discrimination".

Meanwhile, trans people have to pee somewhere and most of us recognise that and aren't interested in making them scapegoats for predators.

I'm just amazed that people can't see the potential issues even if they're not affected by them right now.
If you leave giant loopholes, such as any male declaring he's a woman getting access to single-sex spaces, a predator is going to step right through them.

I'm afraid I have a very low opinion of people, not just women, that can't imagine it.

Think about all the dodgy blokes you know, any one of them can now come into any women's space. They don't need to change anything about themselves, just walk in and cry discrimination if they're stopped.

It's enraging that people are so blind to this.

Realistically most women are only really affected by the toilets one. And the chances of running into a predatory transwoman in the toilets are thankfully still low.

Again, you're suggesting they must be ignorant. What a patronising attitude that no one can possibly have the same information as you and come to a different conclusion. Perhaps they know that and don't mind. Perhaps they think it's so vanishingly unlikely to happen, it's not worth worrying about. Perhaps they recognise that "women don't have rights any more!!1" is ridiculous hyperbole worthy of the Daily Mail. It has nothing to do with "being kind", I have no idea why that's become such a GC buzz word, and again you're patronisingly suggesting that tolerating trans people represents some kind of soppy weakness. All you can do is personally attack women who feel differently to you.

It's not just this issue. Most people are complacent about most things. It's kind of Invasion of the body snatchers. Only a small number of people notice, and a smaller number care. Such a depressing film.

@Seasmoke7 That's because they still assume they have rights. For example, they have no idea that they could ask for a female doctor to examine them and end up with a male who identifies as a woman.

It is not a privilege to worry about this issue, it is privileged women who can think it's all about being kind. When women are at their most vulnerable they need single sex spaces and it is these women who are facing the reality of policies which are written in such a way that ANY man can say he identifies as a woman and be treated as such.

It is not the only issue facing women, but it is such a no-brainer that men shouldn't be allowed to enter the tiny number of essential women only spaces that it beggars belief that so many privileged women are willing to make life harder for others without a second thought.

No doubt you think that I hate trans people, because I am angry about the nonsensical and damaging ideology that they seem to have embraced? I don’t hate trans people. I don’t hate my son. I don’t hate the other trans people I know or have come across directly. I don’t even hate the trans activists who have misled my son and made many people’s lives a misery - but I don’t respect their nonsense and I don’t respect their activism, which ignores the rights and dignity of anyone other than those under the trans umbrella.

I don't think it's about excluding other concerns just trying to protect women who have been abused and side lined because of TW invading their spaces. Personally I can think about that as well as other issues affecting women and people as a whole.

@Josette77 I can't speak for anyone else, so I can only say that I think perhaps you misunderstand my perspective on this if you feel that your partner would not be respected as a transman and that I would feel 'faux outrage' at the way they identify.

I simply have no interest in identity. It's not that I disrespect anyone's identity or think it's bullshit, it's just not a topic I have any engagement or interest in. I have never considered my identity. I am a woman because of my biology, I have always been annoyed by any expectation that I should conform to feminine stereotypes and I am eternally grateful that I live in a liberal society in which women can live free from rules dictated by our sex.

It's similar to the fact that I am an atheist and while I have friends with religious beliefs, I have no engagement in spiritual thought - it's just not something which interests me.

My interest is in women's rights and safeguarding. I am interested in the protections we have in law and the way they are being eroded. Your partner is a female person who has every right to present, express, feel as they wish, whether or not that means anything to a random person like myself should be irrelevant - just as I would ask nothing of you. BUT your partner does have rights as a female. This is hypothetical - I'm not expecting you to answer - but if your partner ever needed intimate care or an examination or to be strip searched by the police or imprisoned, they would have the right to be treated as female - and maybe they would be grateful for this? Maybe not, who knows - but I am determined they should have that option. I will do what I can to preserve these rights for every female person - girls and women and those who do not wish to be defined as such.

I think it is more complicated than just letting saying OK your partner is female bodied but not a woman. Because then what are the criteria for being a woman? I.e. if your partner is not a woman then neither am I or most of my friends. We see ourselves as women because that's what we call people who have bodies like ours (and your partner). The ideas that this can just be about an individual is wrong. I'd call your partner a transman but that is just a polite way of saying a woman who wishes they were/ believes they are a man. It's like not commenting on a fat person's weight I guess. Like, that doesn't mean you think they're thin.

He's a transman. I don't see how insisting he can't be trans and must be a woman helps anyone?

Your partner is trans and your partner is a woman. In my humble and realistic opinion.

There's a privilege to thinking that the trans issue is the most pressing issue that many women face.

It's brilliant and the first half is so interesting and funny. I agree both sexes would benefit from it.

OP, because it's easier to say that shit and go about your day feeling virtuous. Because you don't want to be like the women who asked questions, got angry and disappeared down the long, dark, disturbing path of feminism and politics and thinking. Which leads to realising just how fucked up and misogynistic our society is, how women really don't count as real human people in the minds of a great many men and — possibly the most disturbing of all for me — the realisation of how so much of mens' lives is focussed on sex. I grew up with a dad who wouldn't have page 3 in the house and now I have friends who take it for granted that their husbands are wanking late into the night watching internet porn. It's normal, they say. I have to work with one of my friends' husbands...