Why are women so complacent re. trans nonsense?

I think some people think it's extremist when women say that they don't identify as women, they just are one because of their body type and that no males should be in female spaces. I personally don't agree that either of those positions are extremist.

I think deliberately calling him my girlfriend is rude.

I don't think calling a transperson by the gender they prefer is asking too much.

There's a big difference between:

Trans women are real women.
Trans women are men.
And Trans women are trans women.

He's a transman. I don't see how insisting he can't be trans and must be a woman helps anyone?

These arguments are interesting.

We see these in the black community too. If you're like Candace Owens you must be a self hating African American. We must all share one brain or hate ourselves.

People have different opinions based on experience.

Me being a woman doesn't mean I have to agree with every opinion on here. I think we can all do better.

Absolutely, Ballerina.

For me my negative experience with a 'transwoman' (briefly: I encountered one wanking in a ladies' toilet, when I was 17) is not actually even at the forefront of my concerns (although it does give me a bit of a response when people go on about toilets and 'we just want to pee').

There wil always be predators, and vulnerable people on society's margins, some of whom will seek out vulnerabilities in the law/rules/societal boundaries, many of whom need help and some of whom will concurrently need managed or boundaries put in place.

What concerns me far more is when regulators, governments and organisations collude to disregard women and attack, fire, undermine, threaten, abuse, ignore, ridicule and smear anyone who objects or asks questions.

'Trans' or 'gender' is the McGuffin. The problem here is power, and who is allowed to have it. How the media is allowed to report. How language is being compelled and controlled. Who is being silenced. Who is being disbelieved and ignored. Who is being monstered and excluded. Who is presenting ideology in the place of evidence. Who is being listened to and fawned over. That is't all about 'trans' people at all, it's about people who are willing and able to recite certain mantras and catechisms.

No child should be sterilised in the name of 'gender'. No woman should be forced to share an intimate space with a male against her will. No one should lose their job because they refused to pretend that people can change sex.

On Mumsnet? Absolutely!

and there is also extremism at the other end of the argument too. It’s why it’s so hard to find middle ground.

its also why sweeping generalisations are able to form.

and there is also extremism at the other end of the argument too. It’s why it’s so hard to find middle ground.

What form does the extremism at the other end of the argument take?

Which bigots are these? Are you talking about on here?

I have, yes.

Not that it would justify the vitriol, it’s the question I always ask people who are claiming the problem is the people with less power than them, not those with more.

I don't believe MTF trans people as a group have less power than women as a group. If that was the case we would not be in the situation we are now, the fact that many women object to some males being categorised as women would mean something and our feelings wouldn't be met with contempt by many men.

If those men truly treated "trans women" the same they would be as dismissive of them as they are of women, but they don't, so it's very clear that they do actually understand what biological sex is.

Maybe because both ends of the spectrum are so extreme?

There are too many bigots and those who just hate the idea of trans people that they kinda ruin the opportunity for any sort of reasonable debate. The post yesterday about a trans woman on a game show was ludicrous. That’s why I think many people are frightened of having any sort of opinion on self ID etc because they don’t want to be lumped in with the bigots. It’s why both ends of the argument are dominated by extremists.

In my own experience I think because sometimes things can be true at the same time and women are not a monolith.

Women can believe that trans women are women, they likely know trans women who they know to be good and genuine people which helps form that opinion. They can empathise with the desire to be seen as female, can recognise that gender dysphoria would be distressing to experience and see people living happier better lives as their chosen gender. They don't want to see those people hurt or suffering. I fall into this category and I've never met a trans man or woman who I felt to be anything less than genuine and lovely people. I've known them through their transition and I've seen the massive improvement in their mental health post transition. I find that a lot of gc forums focus a lot on the negatives around transition and they leave out that for a lot of people it actually works very well for them. I find it sad when that comes at the expense of their family though. Or where it leaves them vulnerable due to loss of those support networks.

Simultaneously they can also recognise that other women may struggle with this and it can cause challenges in female only spaces predominantly because of harmful men who may exploit the concept of being trans to meet their own harmful needs at the expense of women.

But they struggle to engage with GC platforms because of the vitriol that exists against trans women (i know trans people can be vitriolic against gc women too - it works both ways) and they find it offensive and see the harm that can cause to the genuine and decent trans people they know in real life and don't want to be a part of that. So there is no space for them and they can't engage in the conversation without being shut out of it. I've never felt welcomed or like my point of view was respected or welcomed in such a platform, it's always a pile on to convince me I'm wrong. I know all the arguments, I've read the information and I've formed my own opinion. So I guess you'd see me as complacent.

I just take issue with posts like this that use the term ' trans nonsense' and other offensive terms and opinions being presented as fact in disrespectful ways which I see happen all the time in these types of forums. Sometimes it's not so much a complacency, as feeling stuck. I don't think it's acceptable for women to feel unsafe in a homeless shelter for example, but I also don't think it's acceptable that trans people feel unable to access any homeless accommodation because they aren't safe in men's shelters and don't feel they fit in womens shelters. Noone should be left homeless and vulnerable.

I also massively take issue with the issue that this is really only an argument that affects trans people who don't 'pass' as their chosen gender. I know a number of trans people who absolutely do pass and it would be nonsensical to place them in a womens shelter for example. The bathroom issue is a prime example for this as well. So really the entire argument comes down to appearance and I'm not comfortable with judging people based on their appearance. I don't feel it's enforceable in that respect unless everyone has individual non cubicle toilets in public spaces which again isn't realistic for many businesses due to space. So I don't feel that I've arrived at a suitable solution that meets all needs.

I also remember the pregnancy Facebook group used by a male trans person to role play a fake pregnancy and stillbirth. A woman who had actually had a stillborn baby objected to this and was kicked out.

Aah. I see. Thank you. Yes likely to come up in the future.

I thought you were telling me off! Bad night sleep last night.

I was just highlighting the impact on your particular area of expertise so that if you need too, you can push back. You may not need to, hopefully you won’t but just in case

How many of you have ever had a real life negative encounter with a trans person?

Not that it would justify the vitriol, it’s the question I always ask people who are claiming the problem is the people with less power than them, not those with more.