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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Insistent on they/them

106 replies

chipmugs · 16/01/2024 15:54

Name changed.

I play a team contact sport. It's a women's team and we enter in the women's league. Two players on our team that I know of are transwomen. One post-operative and one I don't know as she hasn't been around very long. Some other players are, I think, calling themselves non-binary but are obviously at least to me female.

Another player, a female, recently announced at the end of training that they'd noticed people misgendering others at practice and saying we mustn't do this, it will be called out as we are an inclusive club. During training and practice we should all be "they/them". I'm almost certain she meant that someone has said "she" referring to non-binary players. I don't think anyone has referred to the trans players as "he", I'm fairly sure of that.

I don't want to be policed in this way. It's a women's league. The transwomen are spoken about with female pronouns. If you are a female with issues surrounding being described with female pronouns then maybe this isn't the club for you. I am considering saying I want to be referred to only as she/her to see what would happen if I did.

What would you do in this situation?

Please don't tell me I shouldn't accept a place on a team with trans women because there aren't many opportunities for me to play sport and although I'm not keen on it I'm cowardly and not ready to lose something I love.

OP posts:
WitchyWitcherson · 16/01/2024 21:21

How can misgendering be harassment when you only use he/she when talking about the person to someone else? I mean I see that is has been considered harassment but really?? In meetings I don't really say "He/She" about people when talking in front of them, I use their names as I thought it was generally considered rude to say "he/she" about someone in front of them anyway 😂 ("Who is 'she'? The cat's mother?")

EarthSight · 16/01/2024 19:15

Tell her they are to refer to you as she otherwise it will be misgendering according to their own ideology.

Sounds insufferable OP - the kind of place that will kick you out if you are found to be a witch.

MissingLesbianSpaces · 16/01/2024 19:05

They are mis-gendering YOU. Make that statement over and over again, don't even mention the dude-bro's on your team. It is literally violence to be mis-gendered, don'tchaknow?

Justme56 · 16/01/2024 18:11

@dadjoke has actually raised an interesting point. The case indicates that deliberately misgendering a transgender person is in this case harassment (obviously in the context of work) so does this apply for people who are not trans. If someone has asked to be referred to as she/her and someone (as in this situation) continues to refer to the person as they/them could that be considered harassment too?

lemmein · 16/01/2024 17:50

I've only ever heard someone use 'they/them' IRL to take the piss out of the whole ideology.

Maybe I just hang out in terfy circles.

ForTonightGodisaDJ · 16/01/2024 17:45

If someone referred to me as they/them I would literally yell at them - I can't be the only one?!

fedupandstuck · 16/01/2024 17:45

No one is suggesting a campaign of harassment tho, Dad. But fab of you to point out that would be against the law! Good job you're around to edumacate us wimmin.

ItIsEverywhere · 16/01/2024 17:43

I can't believe that anyone playing in a women's team is going to get upset about the use of female pronouns. Surely it's literally the definition of being there?

DadJoke · 16/01/2024 17:38

Soontobe60 · 16/01/2024 16:32

Compelled speech is NEVER the best way to proceed.

Best not to break the law. Where there might be circumstances in which misgendering people isn't illegal, deliberate misgendering can be harrasment.

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/5050/david-mackereth-dwp-doctor-christian-trans-people/

bluechicky · 16/01/2024 17:37

ScribblingPixie · 16/01/2024 16:09

'Actually my pronouns are she/her'. Uncontroversial surely?

This

DewHopper · 16/01/2024 17:35

I could not be doing with that crap.

MrsMarzetti · 16/01/2024 17:33

Tell him you are as special as him so you get to state your preferred pronouns and that they are she/her and if he dares to mis gender you, you will be calling them out on it.

TerrysNeapolitan · 16/01/2024 17:32

I am so tired and fed up of this nonsense. And why are males playing in a female sport league? Trans or whatever they have male strength and physical advantage in sport. I do not have any easy answers for you OP - this nonsense is just going to get worse. Maybe the answer is to have a trans & non-binary league as a stand alone then they can battle their they/thems out together and let everyone else got on with it?

fedupandstuck · 16/01/2024 17:05

Taking offence on behalf of someone else who "may" have got offended had they heard is ridiculous.

I think if this is raised again, I think I would discuss it with whoever is in charge and say that this is not an agreed club rule and that this kind of self-appointed monitoring is prone to turn into bullying, accusations, and a suppressive atmosphere. Surely not the "inclusive" environment the club is supposedly after. If an individual player is deliberately harassing another player because of their gender identity then that individual player can be dealt with.

chipmugs · 16/01/2024 17:05

Yes, I think the person who brought it up is a female she-her

OP posts:
WitchyWitcherson · 16/01/2024 17:03

chipmugs · 16/01/2024 17:01

I thought that's where we were at until recently and someone has got worked up because "she" has accidentally been used for a woman who may not like it. No one will have done it purposely, it's not like that

"Used for a woman who may not like it"...

You mean someone was offended on her behalf?

chipmugs · 16/01/2024 17:02

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 16/01/2024 16:58

I would say something along the lines of "we all try to be polite but it's not inclusive for people to go round policing each other's language. Some people are not ready to declare what pronouns they use, that's very outing. People's transition status is private. Other people have cognitive issues, you can't expect everyone to know and remember everyone else's preferred pronouns all the time and never make a mistake. Accusing other people of deliberate misgendering is offensive, and calling other people out for getting pronouns wrong is aggressive and non-inclusive behaviour that can easily turn into bullying"

Thank you. That's a really helpful way to manage it

OP posts:
lemmein · 16/01/2024 17:02

Couldn't be arsed with this bullshit!

WitchyWitcherson · 16/01/2024 17:01

(As a side note, how can someone feel triggered and upset by the use of a "she" pronoun but not by playing in a women's team? Or is it a vagina-havers team? Mind you, one trans woman is pre-op so maybe it should be a lady-feels team... wait, that rules out non-binary person... wait...)

It's almost as though segregating sports by "gender feelz" rather than sex is a complicated and pointless venture...

chipmugs · 16/01/2024 17:01

banjocat · 16/01/2024 16:53

Surely the way to resolve this is just to ask everyone what pronouns they would like to be called, and agree that everyone will have the courtesy and respect to try to remember and use those pronouns.

I thought that's where we were at until recently and someone has got worked up because "she" has accidentally been used for a woman who may not like it. No one will have done it purposely, it's not like that

OP posts:
WitchyWitcherson · 16/01/2024 16:58

Can't you say you have an undisclosed information processing disorder and that saying "they/them" about individuals will be really difficult for you? If they claim you're transphobic, tell them they're ableist.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 16/01/2024 16:58

I would say something along the lines of "we all try to be polite but it's not inclusive for people to go round policing each other's language. Some people are not ready to declare what pronouns they use, that's very outing. People's transition status is private. Other people have cognitive issues, you can't expect everyone to know and remember everyone else's preferred pronouns all the time and never make a mistake. Accusing other people of deliberate misgendering is offensive, and calling other people out for getting pronouns wrong is aggressive and non-inclusive behaviour that can easily turn into bullying"

banjocat · 16/01/2024 16:53

Surely the way to resolve this is just to ask everyone what pronouns they would like to be called, and agree that everyone will have the courtesy and respect to try to remember and use those pronouns.

KnickerlessParsons · 16/01/2024 16:48

So they're not non binary are they, if they've chosen to play on a woman's team.
Somewhere inside them they have chosen to play with and against women. Why would they do that if they were non binary?

chipmugs · 16/01/2024 16:48

I think a lot of people at the club do believe TWAW and those that don't aren't confident speaking out.

I like most of the team, some are great friends and I don't want to upset anyone. I also have no other option for this sport

OP posts: