Insistent on they/them

Something that bothers me is the “if you slip up” terminology. If I use the pronouns based on my perception of his or her sex, as I have ben doing for over sixty years, why is it assumed that I “slipped up”? Using gender identity “preferred’ (read “demanded”) pronouns is a really recent innovation. Ten years ago, I had not come across it. It is ageist to demand that old people change the habits and assumptions of a lifetime, as this demands a lot of mental effort for some of us, and it also implies agreement with a worldview that some of us find highly problematic.

I'm all for this,I'm sure they'd find something else to kick off about but at least the sane people wouldn't have to worry.

If it is rollerderby, and I can see why a lot of PPs are guessing that, is it specifically the contact aspect that you like or is it the skating? If the latter are there options for you to join skate groups, like artistic skaters, jam skaters, just general roller discos, outdoor skate groups? You could arrange with some of the teammates that you are friends with to go attend those events/groups together. Then, you have options to just ease back from the derby side of things for a while maintaining parts of the activity and the freindships you value.

I avoid anyone who is stupid and deluded enough to use ridiculous pronouns.

Let them play on their own.

I also assumed roller derby, my kids went to watch a game recently and met a bloke in the women's team, with a beard, who uses it/it's pronouns - not a woman by any definition, even gender IDs. They all had pronoun stickers on helmets and there was a bit of everything - it is a place to watch for where pronouns go next. If you have mixed heritage you have your pronouns in all your languages, for example.

It sounds like the officially mixed sex teams are actually safer as the contact rules account for size and strength difference.

Just to add as I think a pp shared misinformation: the EqA protected characteristic of gender reassignment does not compel others as to the use of chosen language and pronouns, and it is not legal discrimination to not use a person's chosen pronouns. Maya Forstater's case discusses this in some depth.

If it is 'respectful' to use someone's chosen language when they are TQ+ identified then it must logically be equally 'respectful' for a TQ+ person to reciprocally use and accept a non TQ+ person's chosen language or understand that they may hold other views. It's a two way street. Or are we talking about hierarchies of caste here where some have power and entitlement to command respect (which if so, would not actually be respect, would it? it would be an act of subservience) that others don't? Which surely would exist only so long as the lower caste would agree to enable it?

Empress linked this article on another thread: this is Lily Maynard, the quote seems helpful re using mis-sexing pronouns:

Using male pronouns to refer to women allows that somehow those of us left behind in the ‘cis’ camp are either enamoured with or oblivious to our sex’s oppression. We must stay in the box so others can leap out into the realm of authenticity. After all, surely we would change our own pronouns if we weren’t happy?

How can we protect single sex spaces- whether it be prisons, sports, refuges or aqua aerobics classes- while calling a man ‘she’? A man is either a woman or he isn’t. And he isn’t. Some say it’s about respect. What about respect? Respect has to be earned, and it wouldn’t matter how much I respected you, you still couldn’t change sex.

Or in this case, what is everyone supposed to do when there are different TQ+ identified people who would like to control the pronouns for the group but don't agree on what the pronoun should be.

“OMG!! You can’t go around telling people what pronouns to use!! Everyone here gets on well and wants to be respectful. We should just carry on doing our best! Shouting about it just causes ill feeling and draws attention to people’s differences and that’s really mean. We all just want to fit in and get on with the game!”

I wonder if it will evolve like with “you” which is second person plural/formal, we lost the singular thou except in some dialects.

In the US people often say “you all” or even “y’all” to make it clear when they mean more than one person, in the UK we might say “all of you” if we want to emphasise that it includes everyone. Perhaps something similar will evolve “they all”, or “all them”.

Personally I intend to keep using he and she but I see they used all around me in written English instead of he/she now and increasingly hear it used in spoken English.

I think there will be many more examples like in this sports team, especially in predominantly female spaces where they/them is adopted.

While I have no issue referring to someone as they/them if they so prefer, however I like to be referred to as she, so just the same they want to be called they, I and anyone who also does should for the same reason be referred to as she if that's their preference.

I do feel this pronoun thing is getting a little toxic as I'm sometimes feeling that I'm not allowed to still be a she! Is that the case here or have I misunderstood?

Thankfully everyone in my circle is open, clear and respectful about their preferences and we all are aware. And if anyone forgets accidentally, there's no massive calling out or fuss (as I'm sure some people do understand that if you've known someone 20+ys as she or he, you may slip up now and again if they've changed their preference) I know not every person is like this though...

I think in this instance maybe just ask everyone what they would prefer so you're all on the same page?

I was talking about discrimination in the context of this situation and similar ones. If you don't want to respect your child's wishes in this regard, that's up to you.

I need to go back to the basics to understand this.

1. This is a women's team.
2. What does 'women' mean in this context? Because there are trans women in the team, it must be 'has inner abstract gender identity which is feminine'. But because there also seems to be nonbinary people in the team, this cannot be the case as they don't have an inner abstract gender identity which is feminine.
3. So why is the team defined in to contradictory ways? Either the definition should be based on sex in which case the trans women should seek other teams, or the definition should be based on abstract feminine gender identity in which case the nonbinary people should seek other teams. It can't be both at the same time, though of course there is no particular reason to base a league on some some unfalsifiable inner beliefs as those don't affect anything in someone's ability to play sports.

If you think that I’m going to call my son “she” when I know full well that that’s lying, you can think again. I don’t deliberately lie every time I mention my son.

They/them is not a helpful term as it also refers to the plural form of groups of people?!

How are we to know when 'they' refers to a group of people and when it refers to one person who refuses to be a she or he?!

"I" and "me"??

Does that mean you will, and encourage others to, stop using cis to describe anyone that hasn't specifically said they want to be referred that way?

Thinking about it, there is an argument that misgendering could also be discrimanation based on sex or sexuality. The best option is always to use the pronouns someone uses for themselves.

Personally, I think this is the end of the team. I have seen it happen before, male person joins womens team, women on the team are uncomfortable, opposing womens teams start objecting, issues with changing rooms, women leave and find another sport (usually a non team sport).

It the standard way women cope: don't confront, back away nicely and go do something else. And ten years down the line we wonder why no girls play sports anymore....

I believe the NBs will win. The third person singular pronouns will become obsolete and we will all be addressed in the third person plural, it is happening already, it has already begun.

Many see the third person plural, “they”, as neutral and not offensive to anyone, the third person singular pronouns carry far too much risk of offending nowadays and people are preferring to play it safe by avoiding them.

In sport we balance safety, fairness and inclusion - sometimes one of the aforementioned will conflict with another. Each sport decides which factors are most important.

Roller Derby (to pick an example completely at random) has picked inclusion (of males into the sport) over safety and fairness, and that's how it is. Some participants might not agree, then they have to play off their own desire to participate, versus their feelings about playing with and against males, (in a sport that was formerly female only).

I'd actually feel ashamed and absolutely no pride in winning a match against all women with men on my team.

Because it's cheating and it's putting the wants of two men above respect for the other team, and fair play for them. If they don't know ahead of time it's also putting them at increased physical risk without their consent.

I mean, really, why bother at that point?

Agree with all of this.

This.

There is no way I would want they /them used for me. Why would I? I'm female and identify as a woman (because i am one) and therefore use she/her. But why should you be 'forced' into using those pronouns out of politeness?

The OP (and the members of teams they play against, who incidentally might not consent to play against men) need to worry about getting injured by the men playing.

Just so there is no confusion about using they/them pronouns 😁

Coach struggles with using pronouns

Sorry, not sure I understand your reply. OP refers to trans women in the team which I am taking to mean males who want to be perceived as women.. or does OP mean females that want to be viewed as men/‘non binary’?