Sources help - cis

There are other terms which reflect distinctions without accepting an ideology - gentile and Jewish, believer and non-believer.

Nah.

There's no definition for being trans. It can be a 14-year-old same sex attracted girl, or a middle-aged male fetishist, or a rapist who wants to be housed with incarcerated women.

You not only make it up as you go along, you either violently disagree with the non believers, or punish them, or fire them, or get them arrested. (obviously I don't know if you personally do that).

People who you like to call cis, get arrested or attacked, for disbelieving in an ideology that is made up on the spot depending on who's got their self-serving hat on that day.

Hence the almost universal dismissal of the term cis, by anyone with even the slightest understanding of its implications.

Cis and trans is extremely binary and is also not based on a definitive clear set of criteria. Unlike believer, Jewish etc.

Using cis for someone is offensive as you are assuming they have

1. The same definition of gender stereotypes, cultural roles and gender as a concept as you do. However, gender varies per culture and therefore gender identity, how someone aligns to the cultural concept of gender as well.
2. Assumes there is only the binary cis and trans.
3. If non binary and gender non conforming is part of trans, probably over 80% of the population is then transgender. Meaning the whole concept is not really very useful except when you want to talk about how the world treats people who feel cis (and have expressed this) as transgender is the majority.

So unless an organisation has a clear set of criteria when someone is trans or cis, can they ask for your opinion of yourself and then they can classify you as cis or trans. My first response is always what use is it to organisation to know how I feel about myself with regard to cultural expectations.

They do, don't they!

Thanks for this excerpt, Erish, it makes the point very clearly.

Cisgender people are people who are not trangender. It usually only comes up when discussing people who are and are not transgender, and it's a convenient way of distinguishing between both groups, just like heterosexual and homosexual. "Non-transgender" is a synonym. It's a term used by all reputable psychological bodies. It is overwhelmingly used neutrally. While some people might not like then, the term is not insulting or disparaging at all.

GC people object to it because they think it means they must accept the reality of gender identity. There are other terms which reflect distinctions without accepting an ideology - gentile and Jewish, believer and non-believer. Discussing transgender issues without an adjective to refer to people who aren't transgender is pretty awkward.

I avoid the term on mumsnet (unless we are talking about it) because it's against moderation rules- non-trans is a decent alternative.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/wordplay/cisgender-meaning

Yes, please do stand up at work and announce that "cis" is bad because Elon Musk, some people on mumsnet, and some blatantly anti-trans lobby groups said so, I'm sure it'll go down splendidly.

https://aeon.co/essays/the-idea-that-gender-is-a-spectrum-is-a-new-gender-prison

This is a good, often cited essay from 2016 from Rebecca Reilly Cooper which touches on the problem of "cis":

So if you want to call yourself a genderqueer femme presenting demigirl, you go for it. Express that identity however you like. Have fun with it. A problem emerges only when you start making political claims on the basis of that label – when you start demanding that others call themselves cisgender, because you require there to be a bunch of conventional binary cis people for you to define yourself against; and when you insist that these cis people have structural advantage and political privilege over you, because they are socially read as the conformist binary people, while nobody really understands just how complex and luminous and multifaceted and unique your gender identity is. To call yourself non-binary or genderfluid while demanding that others call themselves cisgender is to insist that the vast majority of humans must stay in their boxes, because you identify as boxless.

https://www.mumsnet.com/i/trans-rights-moderation-policy

That said, it’s clear that most trans people find the use of pronouns or names that they or others have consciously rejected, to be hurtful and would therefore struggle to engage in a discussion with those who insist on using them. The same is true of the expression ‘Trans-Identified Male’ or ‘TIM’. Likewise, many feminists are affronted by the term ‘cis’ and ‘terf’, so using these terms will make civil debate less likely. As we’ve said, context is everything – but our moderation team will most likely delete these expressions if we feel they're being used in a deliberately inflammatory way.

Does anyone remeber where to find the Mumsnet special FWR posting rules? I think they might also mention not using cis.

Yes, they did. Will try to find.

Caroline Criado Perez wrote about it in 2014 and got monstered by transactivists and still continues to be written off by them on the basis of this and "Invisible Women" - she looks to have taken the piece of her website but there might be an archive somewhere.

Here's a critical article at the time.

https://www.transadvocate.com/et-tu-caroline-criado-pereznn_14058.htm

It is a label that is being applied by one group without the consent of the group it is being applied to. There is also the compelled speech aspect to use a term which you don't agree with and didn't ask for.
Plus it is a completely made up definition from gender ideology, which in itself is a fabrication.

A trans-ideology-compatible critique is that other people's "cis" identity is often assumed; someone will be accused of being cis but how do you know they are really?

I had a Google for you. Lots of noise in the results because of the insurance company and building regs (?). Other than that my search was dominated by pressure groups and Pink New (so much Pink News😔) insisting it wasn't a problem. Perhaps this could be useful though? If it isn't controversial, what are they pushing back against?

Excellent, glad it's some use.
@NoBinturongsHereMate I think the point about looking up other threads is probably that you'll find lots of links to other resources by doing so. There's quite a lot out there!

If you search for thread titles with the term CIS, on here, you will find hundreds of people who object to it.

I don't know if the people you are trying to convince rate mumsnet or not, but it is the biggest parenting site in the world, which should make them think.

https://sex-matters.org/ Have a look on the Sex Matters website OP.
Good luck.



It’s nonsensical.
Cis means ‘this side of’ and trans means ‘other side of’.
Useful in chemistry and geographical descriptions.

Utter tosh when trying to squeeze the whole of humanity into trans-thinking.