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Original poster

Evidence re GC women and white supremacism please?

380 replies

Froodwithatowel · 12/01/2024 15:19

I'll quote JCJ here as I do not want to derail the other thread:

From my, and many other people's observation, over the last couple of years, the UK GC space, especially on twitter, has progressively merged with both the US MAGA/Christian nationalist space, and those of UK white nationalists.

It is not easy to make sense of that X thread, but this statement is one I want information on. I don't do parroting, I believe in critical thinking, evidence and independence of thought, and I have learned to be deeply cautious of being accidentally vaccuumed into the 'so and so smells so do what I tell you' strategies so very tediously rife at the moment to get people in line and useful to others, we live in very grotty times.

So please would some kind person provide me with evidence that women wanting rights, equality and single sex spaces are entangled with religious extremism and white nationalism? Actual evidence. Not aspersions, but evidence.

OP posts:
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9
turbonerd · 15/01/2024 18:26

Just quoting this bit from your post @TempestTost

*There were people on the left in the US for many years who would be quite triumphant in saying that because of the rate of immigration, and birth rates in the US< white Americans would soon enough be a minority, and there would never be another Republican government, and wouldn't this be great.

The background of that is the fact that it is indeed true that if projections play out the demographics of the US are changing significantly and that Hispanics are likely to be the biggest group. And it was true that many non-whites at the time voted Democrat. You also have typically had Democrats being the ones who want more open borders.*

This is interesting, and also goes to show how different the political assumptions are in the US from Europe.

I have googled mr Walsh, and were reminded that he is a catholic republican, so his views are informed by fairly conservative religious values and ‘libertarian’ leanings. That’s how I explained it to myself. I agree with him on rather a lot, but by no means all, and often our agreement is informed by different values.

Which is similar to what UtopiaPlanatia describes

UtopiaPlanitia · 15/01/2024 17:31

SuePine69 · 15/01/2024 16:05

Fascists in Germany and Italy believed in the death penalty. Communists in Russia and China did too. So extreme left and extreme right both believed in the death penalty. They agreed about a lot of things.

Christian Evangelicals in Northern Ireland managed to get the Nordic Model adopted. We're not talking about ordinary Protestants here, we're talking about DUP creationists like Jim Wells who has got into trouble because of his views on homosexuality and abortion.

In the Irish Republic the organisation Ruhama has enormous influence. It was founded by two orders of nuns both of which ran Magdalene laundries. They successfully campaigned for the Nordic Model.

They did it by telling lies. One of their lies was that 38% of Irish prostitutes have attempted suicide. That figure comes from a study of a small group of Dublin drug addicts. Radical Feminists have worked with Evangelicals and Ruhama and share their false statistics.

There was an official report into the effectives of the Nordic Model in Northern Ireland. It said that there seems to have been an increase in the amount of prostitution there. There was a report in the Irish Republic too. That one didn't have anything to say about whether prostitution has increased or decreased, but it did say that women were still being arrested and funds to help women exit prostitution hadn't been provided.

Then if you look at the first country to have the Nordic Model, Sweden, you can see that they have kept statistics from the public. There were surveys in Sweden in 1996 and 2008, on either side of the introduction in 1999. There are 3 key statistics from these surveys. The proportion of Swedish men who were active sex buyers increased. The proportion of Swedish men who had bought sex at some time in their life decreased. The proportion of Swedish women who had sold sex at some time in their life increased.

You may wonder how the first two stats could be different but the first is an incidence statistic and the second is a prevalence statistic. Really you should only use incidence stats to track changes because prevalence stats can change for a number of reasons, like older generations becoming too old to participate in the surveys.

So it seems that prostitution only decreased in Sweden after 2008 when their was a global financial crisis. There was also a decrease in Denmark where they don't have the Nordic Model. Then there's another statistic that says that there are now fewer active sex buyers in Sweden than other European countries: this seems to be a complete fabrication.

Lots of people believe that prostitution is a bad thing but it's about unintended consequences.

Show quote history

SuePine, I don’t see your description of the campaign for the Nordic Model here in Ireland as a charitable description of the facts.

I am a secular, non-sectarian, second wave feminist and I, and many women like me, campaigned for the Nordic Model because we believe in the dignity and humanity of women and we wish for men (and the law) in Ireland to respect women, not to view us as bodies for sale.

Women (and men) like me who campaigned were not influenced by evangelical organisations or sectarian political parties - the DUP and Ruhama campaigned for their reasons and we campaigned because of ours. I’m really angry that you would characterise the hard work of the Nordic Model campaign in such a manner.

MarieDeGournay · 15/01/2024 17:06

I didn't know much about the group called Ruhama, except that it seems to be criticized a lot by men who are offended by any threat to the free and carefully-chosen career choice of potentially trafficked women to offer themselves for sex with large numbers of random men in dingy premises around Ireland
According to their website
Ruhama is an Irish NGO and registered charity that offers nationwide support to women impacted by prostitution, sex trafficking and other forms of commercial sexual exploitation....Ruhama also advocates and engages in policy work on issues related to prostitution, sex trafficking and the experiences of the women we work with.
Nuns were involved in setting it up (and don't be misled - there are some very radical activist women who happen to be nuns) but it's wrong to suggest that feminists who support Ruhama are aligning with right-wing Christians. BTW I noticed on Rumaha's website that they work with transgender women.

TempestTost · 15/01/2024 16:58

turbonerd · 15/01/2024 12:56

Hm, yes. I reckon the great replacement Theory has a whiff of White supremacy about it.

I still think it is good to talk to and with people you don’t like and/or wildly disagree with.
On Carlson being lovely; many of the people I work with are lovely to me. I am well aware that they have not been lovely in the past, and that there are still occasions where they are the opposite of lovely.
I read KJK’s remarks in connection with the fact that Carlson gave her a massive platform when hardly no other media would.

Each to their own, though. I certainly have my own limits regarding who I will talk with. I will respect other people’s limits, but I will not respect being told who I may or may not talk with. That decision is mine.

Show quote history

This can be a bit like the "Nazi adjacent" thing though. SOme people push a lot of stuff under the banner of "replacement theory".

There were people on the left in the US for many years who would be quite triumphant in saying that because of the rate of immigration, and birth rates in the US< white Americans would soon enough be a minority, and there would never be another Republican government, and wouldn't this be great.

The background of that is the fact that it is indeed true that if projections play out the demographics of the US are changing significantly and that Hispanics are likely to be the biggest group. And it was true that many non-whites at the time voted Democrat. You also have typically had Democrats being the ones who want more open borders.

The idea that the left is pushing immigration in the US in order to create this situation and remain in power isn't as huge a leap from these things - which Democrats themselves have talked about a lot - as one might immediately think. When you think about things like the Denton document - there are crazy people who do crazy underhanded stuff.

The question I always ask is, if these right wingers are racists for saying this is the endgame, were the left-wingers racists for making the factual observations in the first place? Or for thinking that would be a good outcome?

TempestTost · 15/01/2024 16:44

Paperbacklighter · 14/01/2024 10:04

Racism in GC circles in my experience comes from men who think they're allies and they double down when challenged. I'm not white (British/Chinese) and I have not been made to feel uncomfortable by any GC women because of my race.

Not overly keen on Graham Linehan tweeting last night in praise of Morrissey and saying that there is zero evidence that the latter is racist. I mean he called Chinese people a "subspecies". If that's not racist I don't know what is. I'm as much a human being as Graham Linehan or Morrissey are.

NC as no doubt his ladies in waiting will come to defend him and tell me why I should just suck it up. 🙄

Did he mean just Chinese people, or does he think every "race" is a subspecies of human being? I have met people that think that - they are confised about science but not racists.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 15/01/2024 16:42

@asterel

thank you for that information. I have been confused by the historical antecedents claimed for ‘ drag queens’ , my own knowledge about stage history concentrates on much earlier periods, where I could not find evidence for this exaggerated portrayal of female characteristics.

Helleofabore · 15/01/2024 16:22

SuePine69 · 15/01/2024 16:05

Fascists in Germany and Italy believed in the death penalty. Communists in Russia and China did too. So extreme left and extreme right both believed in the death penalty. They agreed about a lot of things.

Christian Evangelicals in Northern Ireland managed to get the Nordic Model adopted. We're not talking about ordinary Protestants here, we're talking about DUP creationists like Jim Wells who has got into trouble because of his views on homosexuality and abortion.

In the Irish Republic the organisation Ruhama has enormous influence. It was founded by two orders of nuns both of which ran Magdalene laundries. They successfully campaigned for the Nordic Model.

They did it by telling lies. One of their lies was that 38% of Irish prostitutes have attempted suicide. That figure comes from a study of a small group of Dublin drug addicts. Radical Feminists have worked with Evangelicals and Ruhama and share their false statistics.

There was an official report into the effectives of the Nordic Model in Northern Ireland. It said that there seems to have been an increase in the amount of prostitution there. There was a report in the Irish Republic too. That one didn't have anything to say about whether prostitution has increased or decreased, but it did say that women were still being arrested and funds to help women exit prostitution hadn't been provided.

Then if you look at the first country to have the Nordic Model, Sweden, you can see that they have kept statistics from the public. There were surveys in Sweden in 1996 and 2008, on either side of the introduction in 1999. There are 3 key statistics from these surveys. The proportion of Swedish men who were active sex buyers increased. The proportion of Swedish men who had bought sex at some time in their life decreased. The proportion of Swedish women who had sold sex at some time in their life increased.

You may wonder how the first two stats could be different but the first is an incidence statistic and the second is a prevalence statistic. Really you should only use incidence stats to track changes because prevalence stats can change for a number of reasons, like older generations becoming too old to participate in the surveys.

So it seems that prostitution only decreased in Sweden after 2008 when their was a global financial crisis. There was also a decrease in Denmark where they don't have the Nordic Model. Then there's another statistic that says that there are now fewer active sex buyers in Sweden than other European countries: this seems to be a complete fabrication.

Lots of people believe that prostitution is a bad thing but it's about unintended consequences.

Show quote history

And yet, your analogy was about murder and the death penalty. And we are supposed to assume about a discussion in a Western democratic society. Because you introduced it in response to Busy's point that simply agreeing on the overarching point does not mean that someone is aligned with another person who also agrees but has a different motivation and differences in their desired outcome. Not a communist or fascist one. And the analogy is supposed to be relevant to current times where supposedly we have become more aware of extremes.

Sure, if fascists and extreme communists get together to solve murders in their societies, they might use the death penalty. However, it is not likely that the Republicans or the Democrats would agree on the death penalty. And I would doubt the death penalty would be a solution proposed by a Tory / Labour cross party committee either.

The analogy doesn't fit Busy's point.

Helleofabore · 15/01/2024 16:07

SinnerBoy · 15/01/2024 15:21

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · Today 13:18

I have never met Tucker Carlson, I have never seen one of his shows, and I couldn't pick him out of a line-up if you offered me astonishing sums of money. However, I'm inferring that he's a very successful right-wing talk show host in the US. Is that right? If so, I can absolutely guarantee that to his guests, he is charming and delightful. It's his job to be unexpectedly lovely and to put nervous guests at their ease.

He's quite well known for shutting people down, if he disagrees, as well as shouting over the top of them and not letting them finish their replies. He pushed the Trump lie about the election being stolen, even after having it explained to him that it hadn't been.

And it doesn't mean his can't be both an arsehole and a charming person. I know some people will still go on a shock jock's show after being humiliated because they want to get their point across or they want the publicity or they are fine with that sort of 'debate'.

If he does this regularly though, his show would have trouble getting anyone to come on more than once, and not even once if they think he is just an arse.

I don't believe anyone here is saying that they agree with all his views. I do believe though that describing him personally as 'delightful' doesn't mean that KJK has 'aligned' with his views on more than one single issue, if they are even in full agreeance on that single issue. Which they might not be.

SuePine69 · 15/01/2024 16:05

Helleofabore · 15/01/2024 15:05

The analogy doesn't work nothing. It is a totally unbelievable scenario.

Extreme left and extreme right might agree to meet up to discuss murder and how to reduce the occurrence in society. Is it likely that they would agree that the death penalty should be reintroduced? Really?

And I have no idea what is meant by the lies about statistics. Which group lied? Both? Is that likely as well?

So, no. The analogy is a crap one.

Show quote history

Fascists in Germany and Italy believed in the death penalty. Communists in Russia and China did too. So extreme left and extreme right both believed in the death penalty. They agreed about a lot of things.

Christian Evangelicals in Northern Ireland managed to get the Nordic Model adopted. We're not talking about ordinary Protestants here, we're talking about DUP creationists like Jim Wells who has got into trouble because of his views on homosexuality and abortion.

In the Irish Republic the organisation Ruhama has enormous influence. It was founded by two orders of nuns both of which ran Magdalene laundries. They successfully campaigned for the Nordic Model.

They did it by telling lies. One of their lies was that 38% of Irish prostitutes have attempted suicide. That figure comes from a study of a small group of Dublin drug addicts. Radical Feminists have worked with Evangelicals and Ruhama and share their false statistics.

There was an official report into the effectives of the Nordic Model in Northern Ireland. It said that there seems to have been an increase in the amount of prostitution there. There was a report in the Irish Republic too. That one didn't have anything to say about whether prostitution has increased or decreased, but it did say that women were still being arrested and funds to help women exit prostitution hadn't been provided.

Then if you look at the first country to have the Nordic Model, Sweden, you can see that they have kept statistics from the public. There were surveys in Sweden in 1996 and 2008, on either side of the introduction in 1999. There are 3 key statistics from these surveys. The proportion of Swedish men who were active sex buyers increased. The proportion of Swedish men who had bought sex at some time in their life decreased. The proportion of Swedish women who had sold sex at some time in their life increased.

You may wonder how the first two stats could be different but the first is an incidence statistic and the second is a prevalence statistic. Really you should only use incidence stats to track changes because prevalence stats can change for a number of reasons, like older generations becoming too old to participate in the surveys.

So it seems that prostitution only decreased in Sweden after 2008 when their was a global financial crisis. There was also a decrease in Denmark where they don't have the Nordic Model. Then there's another statistic that says that there are now fewer active sex buyers in Sweden than other European countries: this seems to be a complete fabrication.

Lots of people believe that prostitution is a bad thing but it's about unintended consequences.

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · 15/01/2024 16:00

SinnerBoy · 15/01/2024 15:21

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · Today 13:18

I have never met Tucker Carlson, I have never seen one of his shows, and I couldn't pick him out of a line-up if you offered me astonishing sums of money. However, I'm inferring that he's a very successful right-wing talk show host in the US. Is that right? If so, I can absolutely guarantee that to his guests, he is charming and delightful. It's his job to be unexpectedly lovely and to put nervous guests at their ease.

He's quite well known for shutting people down, if he disagrees, as well as shouting over the top of them and not letting them finish their replies. He pushed the Trump lie about the election being stolen, even after having it explained to him that it hadn't been.

That's interesting. Is it likely that he treats them that way on-screen after being privately charming? If he lulls his guests into a false sense of security, and then abruptly changes his behaviour while the cameras are rolling, it must make great TV.

duc748 · 15/01/2024 15:54

The Russians are nice guys. They wouldn't do anything like trying to interfere in the politics of Western countries, oh no, sirree, Bob. Tucker Carlson is literally one the biggest shits to walk the earth. And I don't say that lightly.

reallyoldhippy · 15/01/2024 15:48

He pushed the Trump lie about the election being stolen, even after having it explained to him that it hadn't been.
And many of “the left” pushed the lie that the Russians stole the 2016 election for Trump. So what’s your point?

SinnerBoy · 15/01/2024 15:21

NeighbourhoodWatchPotholeDivision · Today 13:18

I have never met Tucker Carlson, I have never seen one of his shows, and I couldn't pick him out of a line-up if you offered me astonishing sums of money. However, I'm inferring that he's a very successful right-wing talk show host in the US. Is that right? If so, I can absolutely guarantee that to his guests, he is charming and delightful. It's his job to be unexpectedly lovely and to put nervous guests at their ease.

He's quite well known for shutting people down, if he disagrees, as well as shouting over the top of them and not letting them finish their replies. He pushed the Trump lie about the election being stolen, even after having it explained to him that it hadn't been.

PinkFrogss · 15/01/2024 15:15

You know alot about him, are you aligned?

Not entirely sure what you mean by aligned, if you mean do I agree with him and support him? No. I’m sure I have some common ground with him because as I said in a previous post I don’t think it is possible to entirely disagree (or agree) with someone else about absolutely everything.

What that has to do with knowing a lot about him and his views, I am not sure, perhaps I have misunderstood your question.

AlisonDonut · 15/01/2024 15:11

PinkFrogss · 15/01/2024 14:34

People in the media are known for their personas. It's only when you meet someone in real life that you have any idea what is behind that.

KJK got told to avoid Venice Allen because she was x and y, and turns out she isn't the monster they said she was. If her impression meeting a man is that he was lovely to her, who are you to tell her she is wrong?

It's just more of the Leftie 'you sat next to someone who knows someone who did something bad therefore you smell' approach that this whole thread is about.

It’s a persona he chooses to put out. If she thinks he lovely I’m not saying she can’t think that, but that wasn’t your point. You were suggesting that you couldn’t say someone isn’t lovely if you haven’t met them, of course you can.

Persona is certainly a good term for it - I don’t think he truly believes half the things he says, he’s a professional troll because he knows it’ll get him views and attention. Some of the things he’s come out with is just past the point of ridiculous. If someone chooses to put out a persona of stating harmful nonsense and vile statements about individuals and groups of people, then whether or not I’ve met them I’m going to say they’re not lovely.

I’m sure plenty of people think he’s a great bloke, he wouldn’t be so well known if everyone hated him. They’re allowed to think that and I’m allowed to disagree with them.

You know alot about him, are you aligned?

Helleofabore · 15/01/2024 15:05

nothingcomestonothing · 15/01/2024 14:58

Huh?

Maybe I'm extra dim today but I don't follow your analogy. Have the extreme left and extreme right secretly got together and agreed that men are women and are now all covering up the disastrous consequences because reasons?

Show quote history

The analogy doesn't work nothing. It is a totally unbelievable scenario.

Extreme left and extreme right might agree to meet up to discuss murder and how to reduce the occurrence in society. Is it likely that they would agree that the death penalty should be reintroduced? Really?

And I have no idea what is meant by the lies about statistics. Which group lied? Both? Is that likely as well?

So, no. The analogy is a crap one.

Signalbox · 15/01/2024 14:59

Could it have been the link in the deleted post?
I didn’t read the link, admittedly.

No it was just a link to an Independent article about TC. Nothing controversial as far as I can remember.

This one I think…

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/tucker-carlson-racist-text-fox-b2331989.html

nothingcomestonothing · 15/01/2024 14:58

SuePine69 · 15/01/2024 11:53

Let's say there was a conference where extreme left-wingers and extreme right-wingers gathered to discuss murder. They all agree that the way to combat murder is by re-introducing the death penalty. Let's say that somehow they managed to get it reintroduced. Then several years later they looked at the statistics, realised that it wasn't working, but lied about it. They pretended that it is working.

You have to examine what Radical Feminists are doing when they ally with Evangelicals and the social conservatives. Are their motives really what they say they are? What are the unintended consequences, and do they actually give a damn about the results?

Show quote history

Huh?

Maybe I'm extra dim today but I don't follow your analogy. Have the extreme left and extreme right secretly got together and agreed that men are women and are now all covering up the disastrous consequences because reasons?

turbonerd · 15/01/2024 14:56

Could it have been the link in the deleted post?
I didn’t read the link, admittedly.

Am wondering what Matt Walsh’s politics are. Will Google, but if anyone has anything to hand I’d be interested. He is a Christian, I have gathered. Against reproductive rights? I cannot see his stance being compatible with evangelicals who do not want Science taught in schools; he seems keen on education for the general public and such.
What is the view he has that is ‘far right’?

Helleofabore · 15/01/2024 14:52

Untra · 15/01/2024 14:43

The note says the posts were breaking talk guidelines, not that the user was a previously banned poster.

Show quote history

I suggest you contact MNHQ. I think that they would be very interested in hearing from you and they will explain exactly why those posts were deleted.

Please. Let us know how you get on.

Helleofabore · 15/01/2024 14:47

In fact, the case of Pauline Hanson is a really good one for highlighting the case that even those perceived as right wing need to campaign for single sex spaces.

The fight for these protections are not the sole domain of the left, and in some instances, maybe many, the left has been very divided on the issues. If Hanson has a personal need to campaign for single sex spaces should she be shunned, or should she allowed to campaign, and if she is allowed to campaign, should she be left to do it without any support from the women who have information that may assist her own campaign? Should she not be able to go and listen and collect information that will help her campaign if someone decrees that it will harm their own campaign for the same thing?

Untra · 15/01/2024 14:43

Helleofabore · 15/01/2024 14:22

When posters are PBPs don't MN removed all their posts in this way?

The note says the posts were breaking talk guidelines, not that the user was a previously banned poster.

PinkFrogss · 15/01/2024 14:34

People in the media are known for their personas. It's only when you meet someone in real life that you have any idea what is behind that.

KJK got told to avoid Venice Allen because she was x and y, and turns out she isn't the monster they said she was. If her impression meeting a man is that he was lovely to her, who are you to tell her she is wrong?

It's just more of the Leftie 'you sat next to someone who knows someone who did something bad therefore you smell' approach that this whole thread is about.

It’s a persona he chooses to put out. If she thinks he lovely I’m not saying she can’t think that, but that wasn’t your point. You were suggesting that you couldn’t say someone isn’t lovely if you haven’t met them, of course you can.

Persona is certainly a good term for it - I don’t think he truly believes half the things he says, he’s a professional troll because he knows it’ll get him views and attention. Some of the things he’s come out with is just past the point of ridiculous. If someone chooses to put out a persona of stating harmful nonsense and vile statements about individuals and groups of people, then whether or not I’ve met them I’m going to say they’re not lovely.

I’m sure plenty of people think he’s a great bloke, he wouldn’t be so well known if everyone hated him. They’re allowed to think that and I’m allowed to disagree with them.

Signalbox · 15/01/2024 14:33

Helleofabore · 15/01/2024 14:30

Previously banned poster.

If you found the posts reasonable and convincing, then just continue the theme of their posts.

Oh ok. Fair enough.

It’s not that I found their posts particularly convincing just a perspective on something I don’t know much about which is always interesting. Obviously I will continue to post but just wondered what I’d missed re deletion.

Helleofabore · 15/01/2024 14:32

Pauline Hanson probably also has a very personal reason for fighting for single sex spaces. She was jailed for election fraud at one stage.

I am sure she understands the need for single sex spaces from a very personal perspective.