Anti trans debate

If you wait until you are personally affected by it, it might be too late to change and do anything about it as it will already be embedded within society.

Do you have a daughter?

What if a trans girl or trans woman ( a boy / man) was suddenly allowed to use the girls changing rooms at school, the pub toilets, join the local football team, compete in running races and generally encroach on girls and women's spaces.

Is that ok for you? No objection? No foresight that whilst the majority may well be harmless, this is a free pass for the few that are wronguns that just want easy access to women and their space?

That's like saying why do white people get so annoyed and frustration with racism when they are never personally a victim of it.

I haven't experienced racism but I'm still angry about

@Beedleneedle so you don’t think the redefinition of women away from “adult human female” to “adult human female and some men who feel like a woman even though that feeling amounts ti nothing more than gender stereotypes eg they like long hair and make up” isn’t a problem

how about it we define mother to mean “people who have given birth, people who have adopted and people who’ve never done any of those things but really feel like they’re a mother” I’m childless, should I be able to just call myself a mother? I’ve also used the word people advisedly as if you read articles now around periods, childbirth and menopause you’ll see many of them refer to “people who” rather than “women” Only women can do these things yet suddenly women won’t do. By contrast check out any article around male health and it’ll be men all the way through

so if women includes actual women but also men how do we ever have anything of our own? How do we keep our single sex spaces and services when we need them?

Certainly does have real life impact. I can only assume you are a man who doesn’t have children or if you do they are pre schoolers?

Teen culture awash with this. Friends Dd says she’s a boy.

Mixed sex loos in theatres / restaurants which I hate.

Concern for Dd physically in case she has to play hockey with a man and get injured.

We used to host international students we only host girls. Forced to accept a lad with eye shadow. Which meant a mixed sex under age couple sharing a room in our house. Plus hosting a boy girls only which was Dh one rule he was furious. Stopped hosting now.

@Beedleneedle there’s another thread about how ’only’ T I M police officers with a GRC can strip search women.

I don’t understand why a man’s self perception and decision to get a legal paper changes who is allowed to strip search me. Why does a decision he made affect who is allowed to stripsearch me?

And a family member is saving for a radical mastectomy and using testosterone.

Somehow the steroids athletes aren’t allowed to take because they are dangerous are fine for teenage girls to take.

I came to this topic as my daughter identifies as trans, although on and off. Out of 30 girls (it's a girl only school) in the form, in year 9, at least 5 identified as trans. That's when it came to my radar.

Trans rights are important. No one should be discriminated against if they choose not to follow the sexist stereotypes that are culturally linked to their birth sex. Protection from discrimination is already law and enfirced well. Trans rights do not yet, and should not, include the right to control other people's speech and beliefs. This is an additional right that some TRAs are campaigning for but it is not a view held by all trans people. This would be equivalent to muslim people campaigning for it to be illegal to say that one doesn't believe in Allah. It is not a reasonable position and it is right to campaign against it.

Women's rights are also important. Because of ongoing cultural domination by males in almost every sphere of influence as well as the natural increased strength and speed of male physiology it is right for women to have protected spaces and opportunities that are just for women and male people should not be able to crowbar into those by simply declaring that they are a woman. That is their belief, but no one else is obliged to share that belief and one male present makes it a mixed-sex environment that instantly puts all the women there at a disadvantage whether they share that belief system or not.

The numbers are small but they do make a huge difference.

It is not hatred to point out the problems and the reason you see it more here than anywhere else is that most other forums are censored to eliminate disagreement with TRA thought control.

There are lots of examples of women being disadvantaged by these policies. You would have to be willfully ignoring them to not be aware of the problems in sports, prisons, the regulations for who gets to stripsearch who if you are arrested by police, access to women only gym or yoga sessions, or rape crisis support groups, domestic violence shelters, nominations lists for women of the year in various fields etc etc. Just because it doesn't affect you directly is not a reason to suppose it's not happening or isn't important.

In the vague hope the OP is legit...

It's about the impact of men in women's spaces on the most vulnerable women and girls in our society: disabled women, women in prison, older women with care needs, girls with a history of trauma or internalised homophobia. Those women are on the front line and are often least able to advocate for themselves.

I'm assuming @Beedleneedle has a relatively comfortable life in comparison so is floating through life thinking "well it doesn't affect me so...".

As someone else has recommended, read Helen Joyce's book. It's a quick and easy read and will blow your mind.

Some of thr frightening stats from the Mermaids and Stonewall championed Tavistock failures

@sashh "If you go to prison you may find yourself sharing a cell with a man"
Excellent post but I took offence at the wanton, blatant misgendering. Nicola Sturgeon told us that Isla pinky leggings is NOT a man! Pinky's gender is RAPIST! BE KIND YOU BIGOT! Don't suppose anyone knows what the pronouns are for that gender? Stonewall don't seem to have any info.

We have this pushed in DCs schools. There is a child on T in DDs year (that I know of) It is aggressively thought in schools (according to DC) and puberty blockers are “promoted” as safe in spite of several countries stopping them due to safety concerns.

I am terrified that my DCs will get bullied or develop and eating disorder given the high co-morbidity with gender dysphoria and trans. I am lucky that they are NT and I believe also at half of trans children are ND (someone will have the statistics).

does that explain some @Beedleneedle ? Do you have children?

Mumsnet peaked me, I was like you once and when I educated myself I couldn’t un see it. It’s everywhere.

Do you work in corporate or public sector? Read your company’s policies.

Go to your local council run sports centres? You’ll find unisex changing rooms.

Present as a male for an X-ray and you’ll be asked if you could be pregnant.

Try to get a feminist related book in Waterstones to learn more. Yup two flights up in the far corner or not on display at all.

Fucking progress flags in every day shop windows.

Virtue signalling everywhere.

Park Run women's races won by men.

Once you’ve seen it…

@Beedleneedle ok so you don’t care about professional sport. Should my 16 year old daughter have to fave a trans woman in a rugby match. Not professional, just at a local club. If not why not? Can you imagine what my worries are about this? Or turn it around what are the possible problems with having a transwoman on her team when they change and shower together?

It really does not take much imagination.

But I suspect you don’t want to listen to these issues as it does not impact you. Or you already have a set view on how ‘unkind’ we are here.

Women being called hateful, silenced or prevented from speaking about their biological reality is something I have personally witnessed, yes.

It's not necessarily Trans identifying people themselves, but the ideology that has infected everything, including schools and workplaces which has become a new orthodoxy that mustn't be questioned. To the detriment of women and our biological reality.

Even here in very rural Scotland, out of the 21 kids who were in my daughter's class in primary school, two girls have undergone some medical transitioning, one of them is currently crowdfunding for a double mastectomy. There were at least two more at high school, one of them a boy whose mother set up a crowdfunder for surgery. They are all 19 or 20 now.
You have to lead a very sheltered life not to come across any of this outside MN.

By a man presumably. Now imagine that man had been dressed as a woman and using a woman's name, and you felt you had grounds for complaint about his behaviour, but everyone you spoke to accused YOU of being a terrible right-wing bigot because this man-dressed as a woman, in a position of power over you, is considered by everyone else to be the most vulnerable kind of victim there is? To the point where if you question anything this man does or says you are in danger of being arrested and charged with a hate crime? And no-one is listening to you when you're saying - but it's a man! In fact the more you say it the more YOU are blamed and ostracised. And this man in a frock just sits by and smirks at you going through all this.
How do you feel now?
Because this is what's happening. To women like you.
Let alone bringing all the issues around the transing of children into it.
How can you only get angry about things that have personally affected you?

Loads of things make me angry. Many of which I have no personal experience of.

Is it 'anti-trans' or is it just knowing people cannot change sex and understanding and discussing the myriad ways that this disadvantages women and girls?

I’ve been a lurker in this forum for a few years now. It affects me in real life all the time, as a teacher and a mum.

Only last week, my daughter told me her autistic best friend now identifies as male and is researching puberty blockers and reassignment surgery. She’s 11 years old and wants to be like her favourite anime character.

I’m not anti trans. I’m anti the mutilation of vulnerable children every step of the way, though.

Even if you feel you haven’t been affected in day to day life, every woman is affected by the redefinition of the word “woman” to include some men with special lady feelz.

I thought “transwomen are women” was a kindness to a few men with gender dysphoria. Mumsnet opened my eyes that thanks to Stonewall it was now meant to be taken and believed literally. Combined with the self-ID that Stonewall and many politicians were pushing, it would mean that any man could say some magic words and be treated as if he was just like me. Access to women’s spaces, sports, prisons, opportunities (all women shortlists).

No man, no matter how strongly he feels drawn to stereotypes associated with the female sex, is a woman.

No child is “born in the wrong body” and needs wrong sex hormones & surgery to change their body to “match” the gender identity that we supposedly all have but is based on nothing but regressive stereotypes.

Just yesterday the Scottish prison service claimed that they don’t know the risk that a violent male who says he’s a woman would present to female prisoners if placed in the female estate. They’d have to assess the risk, including what sort of violence it was, context etc. NO! No male (violent or otherwise) should be held in female prisons, no matter how much he wants to be there. Only a man who wants to overstep women’s boundaries would even think of asking to go to a female prison. 90%+ of transwomen keep their penis.

Hopefully this will never affect me, as I have no plans to go to prison, but I and all the other women on here care about other women, about vulnerable women (many with a history of trauma caused by male violence, many in prison for minor crimes like not paying their TV licence).

Keep living in blissful ignorance if you like, OP, but I won’t stop talking about this until everyone’s eyes are opened to the harmful ideology.

Yes.

Marks and Spencer's changing rooms are no longer single sex.
Hospital wards are often the same.
In Scotland if you need the services of a rape crisis or refuge the only way you can know it will be female only is because JK Rowling has set one up.

Imagine a rape victim having to undertake a medical examination including intimate swabs - do you think she be able to ask for a woman?

If the UK government had not stepped in in Scotland that rape victim would not only not have a right to a woman taking swabs but could be prosecuted for objecting to a man.

If you go to prison you may find yourself sharing a cell with a man in a wig.

If you ever want or need a same sex service whether it be swimming, a spray tan, taking part in sport, winning an award that used to be female only then you are at risk.

If you have daughters do you know that at guide camp they may be sharing a tent with a male who 'identifies' as a female.

If you are arrested and strip searched it can now be a male who does the searching.

Do you know that 90% of 'trans women' have taken no hormones, had no surgery and are over represented as a group as carrying out sex crimes?

Do you have kids OP? You can't get away from the issue in secondary schools at the moment.

OP you are entirely right that it's an extreme minority issue.

Can you give an example of sexism in your life that has made you upset/angry/disempowered?