Telegraph: Parents who refuse children gender change face seven years in jail in Scotland

Yes.

But as we know, this thread will now cease to be of any use because it will just turn into the same people arguing with the same poster, for pages and pages, using the same arguments made on many other threads.

Which has effectively stopped the thread, which is probably the intent.

The STV news on this last night was atrocious (even worse than usual). It was like a child reporting. There was a short video of a young guy man reporting how his church had tried to exsorcise his gayness from him. There was mention of the bill being welcomed by LGBT groups and a short clip from a teacher I think representing religious schools concerns although it wasn't hugely clear as it was without context.

Absolutely no mention of parents possibly being prosecuted for not agreeing with transitioning a child's gender. Gender identity mentioned only secondary to homosexuality.
The immediate question that came to mind is that if conversion therapy of people who are gay is such a huge issue all these last 50 years (yes it I know it happened before) where has stonewall been in this? Where is the huge campaign about it? Where are all these gay folks that are seeking therapy in the NHS and being told they're wrong? I get that many religions still hold it as a sin as they hold many other things as sins and therfore people disengage from the religion.
As has been discussed its the gender identity which has not to be questioned, we know this but dear God the lying by omitting to mention the other side by the media is scary. I can see the general population watching the news going gosh I didn't think that still happened, dreadful and be happy to support the bill.
I find it terrifying especially with regards to my hugely vulnerable and autistic daughter. The schools are all complicit in the lie as they're terrified to not comply with any child's wishes. I don't really have a point just adding my voice to the dissent.

If the Nolan principles of public life were adhered to - especially the first 3, then none of this stuff would be anywhere near children. The deeply self-interested adults using children for their own validation would have been immediately booted out of education, charities, politics and anywhere that children congregate.
Society has let children down by enabling these people to break down safeguarding, ethical child healthcare and education.

"1 Selflessness:
Holders of public office should act solely in terms of the public interest.
2 Integrity
Holders of public office must avoid placing themselves under any obligation to people or organisations that might try inappropriately to influence them in their work. They should not act or take decisions in order to gain financial or other material benefits for themselves, their family, or their friends. They must declare and resolve any interests and relationships.
3 Objectivity
Holders of public office must act and take decisions impartially, fairly and on merit, using the best evidence and without discrimination or bias.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/the-7-principles-of-public-life/the-7-principles-of-public-life--2

It's sinister that the SNP keep trying to isolate children from their parents. Imagine how vulnerable a young child will be to predators if they decide they want to 'transition'. Imagine how vulnerable a young child will be to predators if their parents are imprisoned for 7 years for trying to protect them from predators. It's a win win for the predators.

This is an actually terrifying idea. How can any political party want to criminalise parents for not believing in gender identity beliefs? What about other religious or political or cult beliefs? Why just this one?

What about Forstater judgement? Surely this means such a cruel and stupid idea can’t go anywhere legally? The SNP is absolutely ruining its own credibility by trying to push this, but that happened some time ago.

Butterfly, there is no way you can be objective on this.

Not every child who 'questions their gender' will benefit from going through puberty blockade or cross-sex hormones or surgery. These things are harmful in themselves, so their use should face substantial barriers, and not just be a case of 'but the patient insisted'.

Yes, there are a lot of other threads, but there are probably some people reading this thread who aren't very knowledgeable about these issues. They might be wondering what's wrong with a child medically transitioning, since Mermaids, Stonewall et al have been saying that it's a fantastic thing to do, and some schools, medical professionals and politicians are encouraging it as well. I'm posting for the benefit of those people.

It's linked to this thread because if you believe that medicating these children is a positive thing to do, you might also believe that punishing their parents for preventing it is the right strategy.

When children are not kept in a child-like state and go through a normal puberty, it has been observed that over 80% of them are no longer gender dysphoric as adults. For most children, puberty is the cure for gender dysphoria.

What this experiment with puberty blockers suggests is that by keeping these children in a child-like state by preventing puberty stops them from going through this process which allows them to come to terms with their actual sex.

At the same time this is damaging their health in other ways, such as affecting bone growth leading to early osteoporosis. It also means that should they be one of the small percentage who persist in their trans identity, the genital surgery that males might want as adults will be more difficult (as happened to Jazz Jennings and Jackie Green).

Even some trans identifying adults who work in the field of trans surgery (Marci Bowers) are now saying that this is not the right solution for children.

"An observation that I had," said Bowers, "every single child who was, or adolescent, who was truly blocked at Tanner stage 2," which is the beginning of physical development, when hormones begin their work of advancing a child to adulthood, "has never experienced orgasm. I mean, it's really about zero."

This thread is not about the rights and wrongs of medical transition, it is about imprisoning parents for not enabling it. There are a LOT of other groundhog day ones on transition that can be added to.

Of course, good job no 'trans' child ever has multiple siblings who would also be impacted by both their parents being imprisoned, all because those parents had actually plowed through all the medical evidence and made an informed judgement about how to proceed.

Suppose the teenage siblings also didn't believe that their brother was now actually their 'sister' what with having grown up with them and seen what they were like... Prison/YOI on the cards for them too? The youngest in our family was 8 at the time so not sure how she'd have coped.

What about if the grandparents and aunties and uncles all agreed that leaning in with love and attention (and financially supporting a few thousand pounds of regular therapy) was probably a better strategy than encouraging the oldest grandchild in the belief that getting their dick cut off would resolve their ADD/ASD issues. Off to jail too?

I can see this has been really thought through...

Ah yes this is the site that claims only people in their thirties were treated prior to the Dutch Protocol starting.

So many problems arising from indeterminate and vague definitions.

Saw it with some work training where ‘reassignment’ became something else entirely. Very likely the opposite of what the person writing the legislation intended.

In any event. Really, this is all about control.

You will do as I tell you. I am the final arbiter of all values. Married with an authoritarian state that can’t resist using the power of the state to impose control reaching deep into family relations.

Butters and the Scottish government might both do well to read some of the evidence:

https://statsforgender.org/medical-transition/

So...staff were indeed able to correctly identify the portion of young people who expressed a consistent sense of gender incongruence and would continue to do so into adulthood during the initial assessment phase with a 98% success rate?

This is a bad thing...how, exactly? Surely the problem would be if this percentage was extremely low. That would imply that there were problems with the initial assessment phase?

I was referring to this as the debunking of the 'buying time' theory:

...previous research suggested all young people who took blockers went on to take cross-sex hormones - the next stage towards transitioning to the opposite gender.

The Tavistock's newly published findings appear to confirm this, with 43 out of 44 participants - or 98% - choosing to start treatment with cross-sex hormones.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-55282113

Odd how you are reading 'concessionary treatment is temporarily applied at patient's repeated and consistent request after multi-stage assessment process in lieu of more drastic treatment; turns out to be successful as a temporary measure' as 'debunking' its suitability.

The "buying time" theory was debunked when the Tavistock released their data showing that all but one of their young patients on hormone blocking medication went on to have opposite sex hormones. Their brains don't develop normally if their puberty is blocked as they would if they went through a normal puberty, so they are still making decisions as pre-pubescent children.

How can a pre-pubescent child know what it will be like to be a adult with impaired sexual function? These children cannot consent to this or to being sterilised.

What sort of adult thinks it's right to sterilise children?

Had this conversation with you many, many times, it's been consistently purposeless, and I'm not participating in a derail.

Returning to the OP.

I can think of another explanation.

Children claiming to be transsexual is now so commonplace that it's likely that some MSPs have children themselves who identify as transsexual or have other children in their extended families who do.

TRAs have been saying for ages that "trans children" would be the reason for changes in transgender legislation, because "they demystify it and take the sex right out of the trans experience". It also puts their parents and other adult relatives in a difficult position as any pushback against the ideology is seen by many as not "supporting" their child.

So rather than wanting a tiny proportion of children to be able to more readily access a heavily restricted and monitored reversible treatment which has already been in use for decades and which exists largely as a concessionary 'buying time' alternative to administering cross-sex hormones from the outset - which, it should be pointed out, is what the majority of trans kids actually want and are forced to wait to access - you are saying what, exactly?

That this is a sinister plot from policymakers to...what?

But does however require severe wilful naivety and not looking at unpleasant facts and reality, and also involves knowing bugger all about safeguarding.

There is a much simpler explanation which doesn't require bizarre contortions and sinister insinuations about policymakers.

SNP/Greenies are despicable- desperate to remove parental responsiblity and have the State responsible for our children. Won't be returning hame anytime soon sadly. Glad ma weans are up. And how the bloody hell will social work and police enforce this since Children and Families Servicea are already massively underfunded up there with bugger all resources for children with additional support needs, looked after/cared for children and the children of /involved in substance misuse issues(highest drug death rate in Western European - Nicola's Legacy). What a bunch of absolute fruitloops. And no viable Opposition

So that not too far down the line they have a plethora of immature looking, mentally fucked up, sterile people available for whoever is interested in that type of victim, to do with what they will.

Apart from all else, the absolute gall of this group of Scottish politicians and the SNP dictating to ordinary loving parents what is best for their children... yes that august bunch none of whom have ever been involved in any unsavoury behaviour such as poor financial record keeping dishonest financial misconduct, embezzlement, sending sexual emails to teenagers etc etc. And of course how wonderful the outcomes are for children 'in care' in Scotland - these outcomes demonstrate the level of care and expertise we can expect from the dear Scottish state as a parent