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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rachel Meade - it's a win!

692 replies

BreadInCaptivity · 09/01/2024 12:35

x.com/legalfeminist/status/1744697995822526961?s=46&t=88gZvdSnTk70X8b2ZUPZtA

OP posts:
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38
Boomboom22 · 09/01/2024 23:35

It just shows how well no debate worked. This needs more publicity though, we need this sent out to all hr and edi of schools, civil service, moj, etc etc.
I don't know why the sunlight is nit spreading far enough, maybe as we are ahead of the rest of the developed world on this, but we are getting somewhere.
USA on the other hand, wtf?

FigRollsAlly · 09/01/2024 23:24

Absolutely fantastic news. So happy for Rachel and for all of us. Congratulations and heartfelt thanks to her and her team for this significant win.

AuContraire · 09/01/2024 23:14

SidewaysOtter · 09/01/2024 22:42

We can't afford to do that.

We can’t afford not to. Even when I haven’t had much spare, I’ve given what I can and look at the difference that Forstater, Bailey etc have had.

All the time that these cases are necessary, I will continue to contribute to them.

Sideways is your username a play on reverse ferret or am I looking for feminist meaning where there isn't any? Grin

BlackeyedSusan · 09/01/2024 23:12

WorriedMutha · 09/01/2024 13:12

All the other pipeline cases are going to go down like nine pins. The Green Party coffers will be decimated. Its a good job it's not an election year eh.

Xmas Grin
GailBlancheViola · 09/01/2024 23:01

DerekFaker · 09/01/2024 19:55

Sharron Davies backs free speech and women's rights campaigners calling for Sport England's diversity chief to be fired for his role in 'Orwellian' transgender row

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11344759/Sharron-Davies-backs-campaigners-calling-Sport-Englands-diversity-chief-fired.html

Well they are hardly going to be fair and impartial or indeed take a balanced, non ideological view are they, so I would question their suitability for the role they have at Sport England.

JanesLittleGirl · 09/01/2024 22:59

SidewaysOtter · 09/01/2024 22:42

We can't afford to do that.

We can’t afford not to. Even when I haven’t had much spare, I’ve given what I can and look at the difference that Forstater, Bailey etc have had.

All the time that these cases are necessary, I will continue to contribute to them.

Yeah, I'm with you. While these cases need to be funded, I will have another dig down the back of the sofa. There is always a little bit more that can be found.

BreadInCaptivity · 09/01/2024 22:56

SidewaysOtter · 09/01/2024 22:42

We can't afford to do that.

We can’t afford not to. Even when I haven’t had much spare, I’ve given what I can and look at the difference that Forstater, Bailey etc have had.

All the time that these cases are necessary, I will continue to contribute to them.

Agree.

I think there is misunderstanding about what "we" can afford.

All those small individual donations of £2 or £5 add up.

You don't have to throw £50 or more into the pot to make a difference.

This is a numbers game of who really gives a shit and the relevant number isn't how much you donate but how many people women do.

After each case we think "this should be it" but I don't think we are there yet.

This judgement is a fantastic win but there are still far too many people in positions of influence peddling ideology over biology reality and importantly the law.

Then there are others who are just idle in keeping up with legal precedence.

So I'll bet we will see more and more cases before the lesson sinks in but for public bodies spending taxpayers money I think this will come sooner rather than later.

OP posts:
RethinkingLife · 09/01/2024 22:55

Karensalright · 09/01/2024 22:48

@RethinkingLife well the ruling is clear they can not anymore, end of.

Can you elaborate?

E.g., when should NHS, Civil Service depts. etc. instruct their IT depts to remove these from the sig. files? Should publicly funded organisations that arrange webinars and conferences act with alacrity to stop mandating that registrants have to declare pronouns etc.

I'm irritated it's that trite but they're the most obvious examples.

Karensalright · 09/01/2024 22:48

@RethinkingLife well the ruling is clear they can not anymore, end of.

Terrribletwos · 09/01/2024 22:47

Good news!

RethinkingLife · 09/01/2024 22:44

Revisiting Naomi Cunningham's blog post

https://www.legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/02/01/submission-and-compliance/

Despite my inherent scepticism, I would be interested in opinions on how much longer it will be acceptable for organisations to subscribe to Stonewall's WEI, their Diversity Champion schemes etc. Or, will it be like post-Cass and the uptick in the use of PBs, will acolytes double down to prove their loyalty. (See also the work of Lifton, Cialdini and other social psychologists for discussion of similar phenomena.)

Specifically, as others have mentioned, for how much longer can public institutions and tax-payer funded organisations mandate or tolerate pronoun declaration in sig files given that it is such a public, political statement?

SUBMISSION AND COMPLIANCE: risks for Stonewall Champions -

Stonewall have signed up more than 850 companies, charities, government departments and public authorities to be "Stonewall Diversity Champions." Naomi Cunningham examines the risks for participating bodies.

https://www.legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/02/01/submission-and-compliance

SidewaysOtter · 09/01/2024 22:42

We can't afford to do that.

We can’t afford not to. Even when I haven’t had much spare, I’ve given what I can and look at the difference that Forstater, Bailey etc have had.

All the time that these cases are necessary, I will continue to contribute to them.

AuContraire · 09/01/2024 22:41

Thanks Loobijee for the excerpts.

Waitwhat23 · 09/01/2024 22:29

SidewaysOtter · 09/01/2024 22:14

Bloody brilliant. Stonewall et al take note: we will continue to fund these cases until you bloody well learn that you cannot take our rights from us. Every. Fucking. Case.

Mentioning 'bundles' three times in succession is believed to cause a remanisfestation.

I belive it has to be said three times, at midnight, in front of a mirror. Go on, I dare you.

Edited

No need for faffing about in front of mirrors at midnight, just post this 3 times and wait....

Rachel Meade - it's a win!
RhannionKPSS · 09/01/2024 22:21

Congratulations Rachel and thank you to everyone who supported her in this.

IcakethereforeIam · 09/01/2024 22:20

Mentioning 'bundles' three times in succession is believed to cause a remanisfestation.

I belive it has to be said three times, at midnight, in front of a mirror. Go on, I dare you.

I'm tempted. He's got a lovely speaking voice. He could read me a bedtime story.

Just noticed, 'remanifestation', pun not intended.

RethinkingLife · 09/01/2024 22:17

SidewaysOtter · 09/01/2024 22:14

Bloody brilliant. Stonewall et al take note: we will continue to fund these cases until you bloody well learn that you cannot take our rights from us. Every. Fucking. Case.

Mentioning 'bundles' three times in succession is believed to cause a remanisfestation.

I belive it has to be said three times, at midnight, in front of a mirror. Go on, I dare you.

Edited

We can't afford to do that.

Stonewall is not legally liable for its advice if I understand previous cases correctly.

It's on the organisations' own benighted heads if they choose to outsource their thinking to Stonewall but Stonewall is like Teflon.

As pleased as I am, this does nothing to extirpate all the staff in captured organisations who are quietly making the policies and changes that will stitch women up for decades.

Signalbox · 09/01/2024 22:17

Karensalright · 09/01/2024 21:30

A question here i noticed that the examiners at SW regulators includes a LAY regulator.

Wonder how they source them, they are stonewall champions, can hazard a guess.

Smacks of the Bailey case and stonewall lobbying.

It's standard to have a lay panelist or case examiner in regulatory proceedings.
They will be selected in the same way as the other panelists via application and interview. If a panelist / case examiner had links to Stonewall they would need to declare it.

EasternStandard · 09/01/2024 22:15

BreadInCaptivity · 09/01/2024 22:13

I hope she takes them to the cleaners

Me too.

Think of the political optics.....

So many LA's right now cutting costs/services and effectively on the verge of bankruptcy.

Yet they have to pay out £££ for their own ineptitude in adhering to Stonewall law (plus the £££ paid to Stonewall in the first place).

It’s great. Stonewall are toast surely

Who would use them

LiesDoNotBecomeUs · 09/01/2024 22:14

Well done to the team and congratulations all around.
It looks as if justice has been done.
What a brave bunch!

SidewaysOtter · 09/01/2024 22:14

Bloody brilliant. Stonewall et al take note: we will continue to fund these cases until you bloody well learn that you cannot take our rights from us. Every. Fucking. Case.

Mentioning 'bundles' three times in succession is believed to cause a remanisfestation.

I belive it has to be said three times, at midnight, in front of a mirror. Go on, I dare you.

BreadInCaptivity · 09/01/2024 22:13

I hope she takes them to the cleaners

Me too.

Think of the political optics.....

So many LA's right now cutting costs/services and effectively on the verge of bankruptcy.

Yet they have to pay out £££ for their own ineptitude in adhering to Stonewall law (plus the £££ paid to Stonewall in the first place).

OP posts:
FriendofJoanne · 09/01/2024 22:13

Whoop whoop another happy social worker here! It makes me want to run through the office shouting “men can’t be women!” a few times. But I won’t….

LoobiJee · 09/01/2024 22:06

“273. In view of this situation it is apparent that the views expressed by the Claimant were not extreme but rather represented her expressing her opinion in an ongoing public debate. The fact that the debate can often be vociferous, and on occasion toxic, does not mean that the right to freedom of expression in a democratic society should be restricted. An analogy was given during the hearing was to the divisive position of Brexit in the period up to and beyond the 2016 referendum, to which the Respondents both acknowledged that an employee/social worker would have been entitled to post their opinions, and we consider that the same entitlement should have existed to another contentious area of debate.”

mic drop from the Tribunal:

“274. We consider it wholly inappropriate that an individual such as the Claimant espousing one side of the debate should be labelled discriminatory, transphobic and to pose a potential risk to vulnerable service users. That in effect equates her views as being equivalent to an employee/social worker espousing racially discriminatory or homophobic views. The opinions expressed by the Claimant could not sensibly be viewed as being transphobic when properly considered in their full context from an objective perspective, but rather her expressing an opinion contrary to the interpretation of legislation, or perhaps more accurately the amendment to existing legislation, advocated for by trans lobbying groups to include, but not limited to, Stonewall.”

“Remedy
275. The parties are invited to consider whether the issue of remedy can be resolved between them but if not the Tribunal has provisionally listed, subject to the parties’ availability, a 2 day hearing on 12 and 13 February 2024. The parties are asked to advise as to whether this hearing is required, whether it is convenient and if so whether they wish it to be in person.”

I hope she takes them to the cleaners.

Karensalright · 09/01/2024 22:04

LoobiJee · 09/01/2024 22:00

Social Work England not doing their job properly.

“252. The Second Respondent’s failure to check if Mr Woolton’s complaint could be malicious, and not checking his previous social media history, is indicative of a lack of rigour in the investigation, and an apparent willingness to accept a complaint from one side of the gender self-identification/gender critical debate without appropriate objective balance of the potential validity of different views in what is a highly polarised debate. For example, Mr Woolton had described Standing for Women as a known “hate group” and referred to feminists arguing for gender critical views as “terfs”.

  1. Context is important and merely accepting at face value a complainant’s subjective perception of offence is not the appropriate test, but rather that an objective evaluation should be undertaken, as to whether a social worker’s social media posts had over stepped the line in terms of their content and potentially offensive nature.

  2. Mr Noyce’s response to a question in cross examination that you have to turn the question on its head and consider whether a member of the trans community would find the Claimant’s post offensive and discriminatory involves giving preference to one side of the debate. Given the vitriolic nature of the debate, the fact that offence is taken, is not the same as a remark being objectively considered to be offensive. Therefore, allowing the subjective belief of one party to determine where the benchmark for offence should be taken involves a potential abdication of responsibility for assessing whether a social worker has breached applicable guidelines.”

Yes Woolton is now in a tenuous position isn’t them.