GC in NZ

But women on the left talking about this haven't been listened to by the mainstream left in the UK, Canada, or the US. On the contrary they just get themselves called right wing.

So I don't see why women on the left talking about it in NZ would have a different outcome? Maybe they would, but it wasn't clear in the statement made why that might be the case.

Do you think the pattern will be different there?

There are LW women, JKR, Meghan Murphy, Julie Bindle, for example. And right wing women like Helen Joyce. It's by no means all RW men.

They aren't being listened to by these other lw women either, so I don't know that different ones speaking out would make a difference.

I definitely think one reason my husband's posh friends are so fully on board with it is that they get to do all their social justice activism amongst People Like Us, and no longer have to have anything to do with the plebs, like you would if you were involved with anti-racism activism or employment rights or something."

That's beautifully and elegantly savage, Lily. And I think you're dead on.

Wow @LilyBartsHatShop I fully agree. Brilliant insight that I'd never considered.

It's a pattern I've noticed in certain strands of activism. Minorities who aren't useful to the cause get abuse, usually abuse connected specifically to what gives them a minority status.

I noticed the juxtaposition of 'open-mindedness' and, erm, casual xenophobia as well.

Are you saying that the unreasonable ones are not, just for eg, the fat white rich blokes like Laurel Hubbard that are stealing podium spots from disadvantaged young women of colour, but the women pointing out that this is unfair?

Kia ora no it is now kia ora or hello isn't it?
Thanks to National government we all are nothing more special than the rest 🤣
Perhaps those that habe no issue are not backwards but accepting.
Harold the giraffes a government funded very limited I'd imagine when half the 1st year university students are running around with very sti rates.
Oh op go back to the UK! We don't want tourists bs. Take national with you

"I definitely think one reason my husband's posh friends are so fully on board with it is that they get to do all their social justice activism amongst People Like Us, and no longer have to have anything to do with the plebs, like you would if you were involved with anti-racism activism or employment rights or something."

That's beautifully and elegantly savage, Lily. And I think you're dead on.

Currently on extended leave here in Auckland,travelling to lake Taupo tomorrow for 6 days if anyone wants to meet up message me,I meet a close friend since being here talked about issues mentioned KJK and let women speak in Albert Park she said do you mean the women causing the riots I moved the talk onto how do you think Lesbians feel about men with penises expecting to date them she looked embarrassed but didn't say anything since then I haven't heard from her which is disappointing.

Kia Kaha Adult female Wahine

As someone who lives in NZ but is not a Kiwi, I get the impression that it tries to be liberal and accepting in a way that Australia doesn't. Te reo (the Maori language) seems to have similar status to Welsh. People are definitely more environmentally conscious than in the UK. There are pride flags all over the artsy quarter of my town.

However, the recent change in government means new policies are likely to be more conservative. I also notice a bluntness among older Kiwis regarding attitudes to things like race—not always clear-cut prejudice, but there seems to be less self-censorship or concern with socially acceptable phrasing. There seems to be quite a social divide between Maori and pakeha in spite of attempts to bring the two groups together.

I don't have a professional level job, and I don't think gender identity beliefs are particular popular among my colleagues. I know a number of under-30s, and more seem to be gender critical than not if the subject is raised.

Whenever I see this picture I can't help but wonder if it isn't all about posh kids being able to reinforce the heirarchies it's no longer socially acceptable to support - all while looking woker than woke.
I definitely think one reason my husband's posh friends are so fully on board with it is that they get to do all their social justice activism amongst People Like Us, and no longer have to have anything to do with the plebs, like you would if you were involved with anti-racism activism or employment rights or something.

OP - I do not want to hijack your thread but I just want to answer this!

Mumsnet turned me. I remember saying to dh years ago that the women on this site were bananas re trans issue.

But- there was a niggle which led to my 180! 😁

Is NZ more liberal and accepting than Britain then? I didn’t think it was, Australia certainly isn’t!

xxwinterxx · Today 08:40

Ah, I see. So most people would be OK with gender critical views, but anyone in any sort of officialdom would think it best to keep schtumm.

I'm not sure what I wrote to get deleted, I've been quite circumspect over the last few months...

nameychangerrrrrr Today 08:03

Thats exactly what it was like. Anyone that turned up to support kjk was hounded and painted as a bigot. Someone got punched in the face.

Yes, a 70 year old lady, whose eye socket was broken. The story was followed here on MN, with links to the big lump who hit her, whining that it was so unfair that he might go to prison.

And then he got a gentle slap on the wrist.

Obviously my perspective is an outsider's, these days, and actual Aussies may disagree. But Australian politics does feel a world away from the days of John Howard - not that I was a fan of his, I mean more the atmosphere. There were the racist nut jobs back then as well, of course, but most people, however they voted, were in the middle.

Probably depends where you work, I would feel totally free to say "Men cannot become women," etc, in my workplace. The one time it did come up in a serious conversation one of the women was like "That's so weird though...a man dressed up as a woman?!" Kind of shocked by it. And obviously didn’t feel any pressure to pretend otherwise.

But I’ve usually only heard 'gender' referred to in a joking way though like "kids these days don't know if they're girls or cats!", “I’m going to identify as 65
and get the pension,” that sort of stuff. I'm sure there are other workplaces
where it’s more of a big thing and you'd be more careful, like government departments/media/schools.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow That’s interesting. I left Oz almost 30 years ago so very out of touch with the nuance of politics there. My old school friends are all privately educated, a lot of grazier and financial family backgrounds and traditionally would have all voted Liberal. It’s no surprise to me that people like that may have evolved to be left leaning but I have been shocked and depressed by their wholesale embrace of identity politics in general and trans rights in particular.

I guess it makes sense that it is a reaction to Tony Abbot and Scott Morrison etc. but what a pity women’s rights is the victim.