Surrogacy-help me explain to my daughter why this is exploiting women

So what? Well, I'm not interested in sweeping away the harms that surrogacy can do to women and children with a breezy "so what". There are plenty of things that are risky that we don't allow people to do. Like sell a kidney, or sell their babies once they are born if they weren't commissioned in advance. Or sell blood donations. Many many things.

Payment is an issue because in all other circumstances paying to be given a human being is illegal. Yet somehow when it's called surrogacy, it's fine and dandy.

Good to know about adoption.

Yes it is a risk. And so what? Doesn’t mean it should be outlawed. Lots of things are risky.
If payment isn’t the issue, you can argue for
it being done without payment (although personally I think a woman being a surrogate should be allowed to be at home not working, enjoying the pregnancy and being looked after properly) because it takes a long time and would make it hard for her to work.

Adoption is not an alternative and is something that people should consider on its own not as an alternative. So you won't catch me saying to anyone ever "just adopt".

It's really not relevant that some women find surrogacy to be amazing and wonderful. That is to absolutely miss the point that it is always a risk to the woman and any children that are produced, and involves the sale of a human being to a purchasing person/couple. [yes, I know that a tiny number of surrogates don't claim any expenses or charge any fee where that's legal]

And? How did she find it?

There was at least one comment up the thread which said it was impossible for a woman to want a be a surrogate.
And all pregnancies are risky, I don’t think it’s fair to say it should not allowed purely due to that. I’ve done ivf and it was actually a really good (and very worthwhile!) experience for me. I have some embryos left and would personally use them and do it all over again rather than do it naturally. Probably get told I’m crazy for that and it’s not possible I want do it!

I know someone who’s been a surrogate and she is honestly wonderful! and absolutely adores pregnancy and birth. I think she’s done a wonderful thing personally. Not everyone can ‘just adopt’ and honestly, surely the ideal is that no one needs to be adopted and that only wanted and loved babies are made?

I have. I met the woman who was a surrogate for my friends.

@BiscuitLover3678 I don't see anyone making those assumptions, at all. Are you quoting from someone?

What is being discussed is the risk of surrogacy. Which many people here find are too high, for women and for the babies concerned.

There seem to be a lot of assumptions being made. Ie it’s impossible to want to be a surrogate, a surrogate is always being abused, having a baby that isn’t your own is the most dangerous thing you can do, the child will suffer.

I can understand the argument that this will happen to some women (which makes the morality questionable) but this is definitely not the case for all. Having no first hand of experience and yet all these assumptions seems ignorant at best.

It's possible to discuss this issue (indeed any issue) without having direct experience. We do it all the time about many things. It would be a very strange world indeed if people could only discuss issues they had direct personal experience of.

Under current English law, the birth mother is always the legal parent at birth. They cannot be forced to sign adoption papers. Adopting a surrogate child can take years. Surrogacy agreements have no standing in law. Surrogacy for profit is illegal and has been since 1985, but it's tricky to know if payments are just repayment of expenses or renumeration.

There is a useful site here which presents the arguments, pitched at an easy-to-understand level.
https://debatingmatters.com/topic/the-uk-government-should-legalise-commercial-surrogacy/

Another one, here, is more academic and detailed.
https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ukgwa/20100408192620/www.dh.gov.uk/en/Publicationsandstatistics/Publications/PublicationsLegislation/DH_4009697

The fundamental rule is that surrogacy should be like organ donation - a freely given gift.

I find these mumsnet threads so bizarre. Clearly a lot of these posters on here have never actually met a woman who is/was a surrogate.

Why are you telling other women what they think? You have absolutely no idea. It’s like how some people can’t ever imagine wanting kids and think you must only want them if have been emotionally manipulated by society.
Guess what? I love it. I also love being pregnant. The idea of not doing it again feels me with such a deep sadness. I can totally get behind why women want to do surrogacy.

Through a previous job I have met multiple families have an adopted child and a birth child (only a small percentage of the families will adopted children but still a reasonable number)

In the vast majority of cases the adopted child had a range of issues ranging from mild to severe which often were not present in the birth child.

So due to the trauma they had witnessed as a child, some were adopted from birth and still had issues.

People judging adoptive parents when their adoptive child has problems from trauma etc are one of the many things that put people off adopting.

Why wasn't she able to parent? What was the biological father like and why wasn't he around?

In cases like this, I'd assume the boy would have issues because of the kind of people his biological parents were.

emphasise = empathise obviously

“Exploitation is the act of using someone unfairly for your own advantage”

That is one meaning of exploitation.

Exploit also means to make use of or to utilise. And exploitation is merely the act of making use.

However, it is really telling how people react to the starkness of the word in relation to something they are so overly emotionally invested in or are inclined to accept because they so emotionally emphasise with the benefactors of the transaction. While showing a significant lack of empathy and dismissal of their health for the exploited women and the product of the transaction- the delivered child.

The child who sounds again like they must only ever be grateful that they were transacted in this way. Grateful to be alive and carry the burden of being so wanted that their life was bought and at least one woman’s body was exploited.

The issue of “choice” always comes up. And there’s no doubt there are some women who would fit the description of doing it genuinely out of choice (even though in the grand scheme of worldwide surrogacy that number is minuscule).

But that needs to be followed through and a framework needs to exist to deal with choice. Choosing to do other things too. Such as:

• having an abortion
• continuing with a pregnancy despite a a severe abnormality
• drinking
• smoking
• having sex with her partner
• eating what she likes
• delivering the baby how she prefers
• keeping the baby if she wishes, to name but a few

There are many examples of where a woman may “choose” to be a surrogate but the instant she’s pregnant, her ability to choose how she lives her life disappears. Controlled diet. No sex. Hell, there was even a woman who was chastised for not waxing and didn’t get to control the fact she was shown on tv giving birth. Not much choice there.

If you say she is allowed to choose how she lives her life through the pregnancy and what she does with the baby then fair enough, that’s consistent. However that position acknowledges the intended parents have no rights. I don’t have a problem with that personally, but they might and there might be legal repercussions.

So does she really have free choice? Or is it partial choice? Choice up to a certain point then a restriction of choice? And what framework can exist to decide whose choice matters most and who gets the final say?

If you think the intended parents should have some rights you’re instantly saying the pregnant woman must compromise her choice. If you’re saying they have no rights you need to explain how you’re going to sort out the resulting legal shit show. If you think there’s no way of resolving this legal shit show you have to be against surrogacy. And if your answer to solving the legal shit show is “let’s just hope nothing goes wrong and no one falls out” then you’re ethically bankrupt.

@Babynumberone369

Did you never fall in love with your baby as soon as he or she was born?

I remember when I was trying to think of who I would ask to look after my baby if something happened to me and I couldn't think of anyone who was good enough (my friends and family are lovely, but I wanted perfect).

I've also read loads about women who have given their children up for adoption and never a day goes past that they don't think about them.

@RedToothBrush
Interesting.

I won't share my initial assessment of what kind of person you are 😊

The bit where you think you aren't emotionally needy and vulnerable...

@RedToothBrush which part is bullshit?

Bullshit.

You are being emotionally manipulated by the whole 'but they wouldn't have another chance' emotional manipulation.

Otherwise you wouldn't even see the value in doing it! It would have no purpose to do it.

@RedToothBrush
I said I'd be a surrogate mum if I was 10 years younger.

I don't have mental health issues
I have a good job
I'm not vulnerable
I certainly wouldn't be guilt tripped into it
I haven't seen any surrogacy advertising

I just think it's an amazing thing to do for people who wouldn't otherwise be able to have a child. I have friends I'd do it for in a heartbeat.

'The mother wants to do it' forgets that if you have a relative who is desparate for a baby and saying you are their only chance, its difficult to say no. Thats emotional manipulation even if you love that person. It clouds your judgment to be able to say yes or no truly freely. Any surrogacy where someone knows the other party before the agreement CAN NOT by definition, be truly without 'undue pressure'. And that should be a red flag.

It also doesn't go much into the mental health of these women who feel that they need to do this. Why? Whats REALLY going on there? Are these vulnerable women who have issues going on in their lives so they feel the need to 'get something' from handing over a baby. I'd really like to see the psych profiles on that in terms of the type of woman who does this - keeping in mind how advertising works and how sales pitches are targetted even in supermarkets based on psychology. In other words, these clinics know to pitch to women with lower self esteem quite deliberately. They don't pitch to high flying career women to be surrogates do they? We know this is done for commercial surrogacy - what makes anyone confident its not done for 'altrustric' surrogacy.

It also forgets that its not about the woman who 'wants' to do it. Its about the child first. A child that is ultimately made into a comodity to be handed over.

There is no such thing as surrogacy without tugging on emotional heart strings - and that says everything you need to know.

@ItsMyPartyParty No pro-surrogacy argument centres the child. None.

Because it’s the same as a baby being born to its biological mother. No one ever says oh it’s all for the baby and the baby is the one benefiting from this birth. No. When I gave birth it was very much for me initially! But then the baby is immediately loved and cherished by its primary carer. And it begins its life. It doesn’t really matter who takes it after birth. We all think it does, the emotions for the birthing mother are extreme. But the reality is that as long as one primary caregiver immediately takes over their love and care then the baby is ok. Often it’s the birth mother, sometimes the father(who was not pregnant either) and sometimes another person.