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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

An "I'm Spartacus" phrase that almost everyone would sign up to?

60 replies

worstofbothworlds · 03/01/2024 12:12

I'm wondering if it would be possible to have a phrase for the "I don't understand but this is madness" friends and colleagues of those who are being harassed and ostracized?
Or is everyone who hasn't looked into gender ideology too cautious?
I'm pretty sure 99% of people don't believe humans can change sex but would they actually stand up in a meeting or put in their email signatures "my name is Dave and I don't believe humans can change sex"?

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newtlover · 05/01/2024 18:52

Verbally, I like
'my pronouns are sex based, like my oppression'
or
'If you are speaking to me please use 'you' if you are speaking about me, you may use whatever seems appropriate'
For an email signature I like
The earth is a sphere
or, as a PP said,
Reality is everything that is still there when you stop believing in it.

Unfortunately I've never been asked !

bollockstoallthat · 05/01/2024 17:13

I also think that being sensitive about detransitioners will perhaps make people think about the impact on them of peer pressure to stay trans and the difficulties they face.

I think being a detransitioner is the most unrecognised and unsupported subset of trans people. Being mindful of everyone affected by this issue gives more credibility to the concerns around single sex spaces and safeguarding and would be a deterrent to TRAs who may wish to discredit this.

bollockstoallthat · 05/01/2024 14:49

This could counter any suggestion of transphobia as it is mindful of trans rights and detransitioners.

bollockstoallthat · 05/01/2024 14:06

"I have given this a great deal of thought and have concluded that pronouns are counter productive to women and trans people - especially detransitioners who may feel uncomfortable about reverting to their original status"

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 05/01/2024 13:45

@worstofbothworlds I am really thinking "what would everyone who isn't captured agree with to point out that we are in the majority"

I've been thinking of things you could say in a crowded room that almost everyone would agree with that the people who didn't agree with couldn't object to and hold against you.

Tomboys need new roller skates not doctors to fix them.

Of course most swishy boys just grow up into gay men.

No little kid can decide having an orgasm will never be important to them.

The same standards of medical ethics obviously have to apply regardless of gender identity.

Public policy has to be based on evidence not ideology.

Francesgumm · 05/01/2024 12:55

I think in a work meeting /training if they were going round the room and asking people to state name, job title and pronouns I’d just say ‘Frances Gumm’ , ‘Project Manager’ and then nothing else. If asked ‘and could you state your pronouns ?’ I will simply say ‘No’. And on repeat.
I am starting to gradually be recognised as a grumpy middle aged woman who doesn’t believe in the bollocks.

I’ve already stuck my head above the parapet and commented on a ‘gender graph’ - I asked is that a graph showing biological men or men who can identify as women. I pointed out that if men can identify as women then the graph is pointless - could be 100% men. Sadly the answer I got back eventually was that women can indeed be self id men!!!

On zoom meetings I often wear my woman adult human female or suffragette colours attire!
Can’t wait to retire!

rhywlodes · 05/01/2024 12:13

AIstolemylunch · 04/01/2024 10:35

What's a good response to being asked to introduce yourself in a group setting and what are your pronouns, like on a training course for example, incase it ever happens?

I want to say I don't have them but if course grammar does exist and I would expect people to use she and her when talking about me. I'd of course use I and me.

Copied from the recent thread about a Helen Joyce pocast.
This is something she says:
If my employer ever asks me to put pronouns on my email signature or identity badge I will say “I prefer to remain politically and ideologically neutral in the workplace.

crunchermuncher · 05/01/2024 11:22

JoodyBlue · 04/01/2024 19:15

Listened to Maya today speaking about Munroe Bergdorf being a UN ambassador for women or whatever. She said the objection is "he is a man". The interviewer argued that many would say TW are not men. Maya said effectively "No I see a man". It then became so obvious that the assertion that MB isn't a man by the interviewer was coercive of Maya's thought and language. Very obvious gaslighting. Maya is a strong women. But what of the children who are simply brought up in their formative years to not understand what a woman is. Honestly, I think we all need to get braver. My response will be "I don't use preferred pronouns", not even with a smile. Deadpan, serious, not even prepared to argue anymore. It is too important. Would really recommend watching her interview because she models a perfect response. Link on her twitter/x feed.

Have you got a link to the Maya interview? I'm not on X and can't find it...

Villagetoraiseachild · 04/01/2024 19:22

Someone whose wisdom iI respect said when asked about this issue, "I just don't engage with preferred pronouns'.
In effect, politely grey rock pronouns.
But for single sex spaces, they must be honoured.

JoodyBlue · 04/01/2024 19:15

Listened to Maya today speaking about Munroe Bergdorf being a UN ambassador for women or whatever. She said the objection is "he is a man". The interviewer argued that many would say TW are not men. Maya said effectively "No I see a man". It then became so obvious that the assertion that MB isn't a man by the interviewer was coercive of Maya's thought and language. Very obvious gaslighting. Maya is a strong women. But what of the children who are simply brought up in their formative years to not understand what a woman is. Honestly, I think we all need to get braver. My response will be "I don't use preferred pronouns", not even with a smile. Deadpan, serious, not even prepared to argue anymore. It is too important. Would really recommend watching her interview because she models a perfect response. Link on her twitter/x feed.

NewYearNewNameOldMe · 04/01/2024 18:16

I'll no sooner add pronouns to my email signature than I will my position on religion, my marital status, the number of children I have or whether I'm disabled.

Because it is not relevant to the content of the email or the interaction represented by it.

Also because at some stage, any / all of those have been used to discriminate against ... females in the workplace.

I will not be complicit in my own eradication.

crunchermuncher · 04/01/2024 17:47

Tell them your adjectives are 'amazing/ wonderful/ excellent'

If they think that's ridiculous, ask why it makes any more grammatical sense to specify your own pronouns.

2024GarlicCloves · 04/01/2024 17:37

Kind regards,
Garlic Cloves
(I don't control your words)

Kind regards,
Garlic Cloves
(Sex matters)

Kind regards,
Garlic Cloves
(gender abolitionist)

Kind regards,
Garlic Cloves
Empress/Queen

Kind regards,
Garlic Cloves
no/thank/you

... ... ...

2024GarlicCloves · 04/01/2024 17:24

The pronouns are not "mine". Compelled speech is a bad thing. You should use the pronoun you deem most appropriate.

worstofbothworlds · 04/01/2024 14:40

MsGoodenough · 04/01/2024 13:40

I think adding anything to your email signature beyond name and job title makes you look immature and unprofessional. We shouldn't be staying out beliefs at the end of our emails. It's not relevant or appropriate.

I'm inclined to agree but there are at least two professors in my department (both completely conforming in dress and appearance, though the female one not a doormat) who have pronouns in their signatures.

OP posts:
MsGoodenough · 04/01/2024 13:40

I think adding anything to your email signature beyond name and job title makes you look immature and unprofessional. We shouldn't be staying out beliefs at the end of our emails. It's not relevant or appropriate.

Violetparis · 04/01/2024 12:06

I think if you are asked to state pronouns in a meeting/ training etc saying 'I'm not comfortable stating pronouns' is a good response and if pushed further keep stating 'I'm not comfortable with this'.

quantumbutterfly · 04/01/2024 11:51

My heart always sinks a bit when I see pronouns on e-mails, especially when I know it's optional for that workplace/person.
As pp said, their absence is telling.

quantumbutterfly · 04/01/2024 11:40

I suppose we should be grateful that they can name some grammatical terms, their education wasn't completely wasted.

Is there any push-back from languages with gendered nouns?
Are the French and Germans assuming that their tables are gender fluid rather than assuming you haven't learned the language properly?

slug · 04/01/2024 11:27

When asked for pronouns I just say I'm not religious.

cloudtree · 04/01/2024 11:27

I'm not sure that most people have even given it much thought though. They don't grapple with the issues any further than "I don't want people thinking I'm a bigot/homophobic" so they then adopt the "be kind" route.

I'm concerned we are in an echo chamber as much as they are.

worstofbothworlds · 04/01/2024 11:01

ErrolTheDragon · 04/01/2024 10:00

No, if Prof Smith is an FRS then he should have more sense than to add pronouns or anything relating to their beliefs or politics to his signature.

Indeed, but students and some "be kind" colleagues think everyone agrees with them apart from these few nasty middle aged witches who dare to differ.
If everyone who believed in reality stated they believed in it, in solidarity with their colleagues who are getting harassed, the "I can't cope with reality" brigade might realise they aren't in the majority.
Hence "I am Spartacus".

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AmaryllisNightAndDay · 04/01/2024 11:00

if 90% of people said this openly and frequently, perhaps the harassers would work out they are in the minority.

Yes but then they feel paranoid and persecuted ... and therefore justified in harassment.

howdoesatoastermaketoast · 04/01/2024 10:52

I've never had to but I have thought about it a bit and I suspect if I was in that situation I would say (UK)

"I'm not comfortable doing that"

I'm not sure how much pushback I'd face but follow ups if pushed...

"I understand why you think it's a good idea but I don't agree and think it's better not to"

and if pushed again

"some people here may well be wrestling with their gender identity for all I know but they certainly shouldn't be pressured to come out before they want to or to claim pronouns they aren't actually 100% comfortable with. Equally some people might be gender critical as they have a legally protected right to be. A ritual where people are pressured to publicly declare their pronouns risks making both gender critical and trans people self conscious and uncomfortable and is clearly misjudged as an icebreaker."

AIstolemylunch · 04/01/2024 10:35

What's a good response to being asked to introduce yourself in a group setting and what are your pronouns, like on a training course for example, incase it ever happens?

I want to say I don't have them but if course grammar does exist and I would expect people to use she and her when talking about me. I'd of course use I and me.