First time poster - question about GC beliefs

Nepeta’s point is a really important one.

“I believe that these questions should be asked of the transgender activists, i.e., are there any compromises at all, short of us redefining 'woman' to have nothing to do with being of the female sex, that they would accept.”

I'm a 2nd wave feminist. I reject all notions of Gender Stereotypes while acknowledging that there are differences between the sexes that mean that only women can give birth etc.

So the concept of "living as the other sex/gender" is utter piffle - since you would only then be reinforcing a gender stereotype. People should wear what makes them comfortable that doesn't infringe cultural or legal indecency norms.

There are good reasons for having single sex spaces and that should be enshrined in law. Humans cannot change sex. On a personal level I'm relatively happy to use your chosen epithet or pronoun s long as you understand that if you are a man who wishes to be called Barbara and she/her - my using those names/pronouns doesn't mean that i believe you have changed sex. Any attempt to compel or bully me will have me going back to Steve and he/him in nanoseconds.

Haha yes, you've just summed up my post with a single meme.

Holy shit, Margot, that's a fantastic post.

And made me think of this...

I can't live as a millionaire because I'm not one.

You could live as a millionaire without being one, by spending money you don’t have. But that would be fraudulent …

I think people should wear what they want and use whatever name they like. If I knew then as their 'old' name it might take me a while to remember the new one. But I'll do it.

So will I, except when it comes to very close relatives. I can’t do this for my son, and it is causing huge tensions in our family. He has gone from saying “I’m calling myself this” to “this is my name” to “you have to accept me as who I say I am”. Somewhere in that process it became intolerable for me - because healthy relationships are not based on coercion, pretence and dishonesty. I can live with a relationship based on pretence if it’s not a close relationship. I do not accept my son as a daughter, because that is not reality, and it denies our shared past. I will always accept him, because he is my son. If he won’t accept that this is where my boundary is, he has the option of cutting himself off from me. But I will be waiting desperately for him to accept that he is still my son, for as long as I live.

To slightly misquote another poster here, my history is that I have a son. That is (part of) my identity.

Totally agree with this also. It's not possible to be born in the wrong body, no matter whether you feel you're in the wrong body, it is actually just your body and you dislike it for whatever reason. If someone wants to pay out their own pocket to change their body, and they are an adult, go for it (although I think this should go along with counselling and a lengthy informed consent process). I don't think cosmetic surgeries should be funded on the NHS without considering why someone thinks their body is wrong.

This is a really important point.

I feel that women were coerced into agreeing that trans women should be in women's spaces because, poor trans women, it must be so difficult living with such debilitating dysphoria and at the same time being so vulnerable around other males, and so we should learn to put aside any discomfort we might have about sharing single sex spaces with male people and make room for them.

Then once the principle that genuine, vulnerable, truly dysphoric, wouldn't harm a fly trans women should be allowed in women's single sex spaces was established, the lobby groups set about removing all these qualifiers. We now have a situation where mainstream politicians will go on record saying that male rapists should be housed in women's prisons if they feel that best suits their gender identity, and that there should be no requirement for someone to be diagnosed with gender dysphoria in order to change their legal sex. And suddenly we're a very long way from the sweet, gentle, terribly distressed and dysphoric hypothetical trans woman we started with.

This kind of creep is absolutely typical of this movement and we see it as well with language.

First they were transvestites. Then they were transsexuals. Then they were transgender. Then they were trans women, but they all assured us that no one was confusing sex with gender. Then it was trans women are women and now it is trans women are female. So we've gone from transvestites to the female penis, and women no longer having any words for themselves at all, except in very specific contexts where we may be permitted to refer to ourselves as people with cervixes or menstruators. But we are not allowed to have a word to describe ourselves as a sex class which includes all female people and excludes all male people.

It is important to recognise this pattern because if we do not, we risk becoming the metaphorical boiled frog. We start off thinking about a reasonable compromise, and the water is only slightly warmer than we are really comfortable with, but then before we know it we are being boiled alive.

It's tricky because those of us who have been embroiled in this debate for a while now are rightly sceptical about whether any compromise is possible because we have seen what happens when we give an inch. But I think newcomers to the debate have to experience it for themselves. Because they see us hardened "TERFs" over here and they think we are being very black and white about it all, but they haven't seen the journey we've been on to reach that position, where all the compromises we have offered have been met with further demands or rejected out of hand.

I have a question for lovelycosyslippers.

If a teenage girl is in a car crash and is hospitalised and needs intimate care (sponge baths, toileting/wiping, tapon/pad changes etc.) is it OK, in your opinion, for them to request single sex care and for that care to be by genuinely female nurses only?

A second question.

Where have all the transvestites gone?

For me there is an issue with unnecessary medicines and surgeries full stop. The prevalence of cosmetic surgery in our society doesn't feel like progress to me. Slightly off tangent but still relevant in this context.

Welcome!!
"do you accept that some people firmly believe they are born in the 'wrong' body, and have a right to live as the other sex (up to but not including the point where it would impinge on the rights of that other sex), possibly taking hormones and undergoing surgery? "

Most definitely!
My only issue starts coming in where they start insisting that they "literally" are the thing they say they are, and demanding entrance to sex segregated spaces because of how they feel, with no consideration about anyone other than themselves.
I don't care how anyone wants to dress, or "present" as long as it doesn't affect other people.
The issue is, it is VERY MUCH affecting other people now.
I shouldn't be made to undress around a male bodied person if I do not consent to that. I should not be forced into using Unisex spaces because they're the only ones available.

I will always treat other's how I wish to be treated until they don't provide me that same courtesy - In which case I will treat them exactly how they've treated me.

I dont think you can live as the opposite sex. Men can wear a dress, makeup, whatever they like. But they cannot breach sex-based spaces which are there to protect women & they cant make me believe in their fantasy.

If you hold gender critical beliefs, do you accept that some people firmly believe they are born in the 'wrong' body, and have a right to live as the other sex (up to but not including the point where it would impinge on the rights of that other sex), possibly taking hormones and undergoing surgery?

Of course. GC Feminism simply holds that dressing in gender stereotyped ways (or even taking hormones) doesn't affect your sex and shouldn't permit you to harm women's rights.

More than that I think for a few people transition is the only effective treatment for severe GD. Sadly the evidence is that it isn't a very efficacious and I worry about some groups encouraging that treatment without evidence.

I have trans family, friends and cocolleagues. Nothing about GC Feminism opposes trans rights. GC feminist support gender nonconformity, many feminists are GNC themselves.

They can't change sex. They can wear whatever the fuck they like. They can have whatever interests they like (as long as they are legal!).

But pretending to be a difference sex and forcing others to lie about that isn't ok and has harms.

I believe that these questions should be asked of the transgender activists, i.e., are there any compromises at all, short of us redefining 'woman' to have nothing to do with being of the female sex, that they would accept.

So far I have not come across more than one person online who would be willing to consider third spaces, say, or the very important concept of retaining the old meaning of 'women and girls' so that we can reasonably address misogyny and sexism (FGM, sex-selective abortions and infanticide, child marriage for female children, sex trafficking which mostly affects females and so on).

It's not so much gender critical feminists who are rigid and unbending about all this, in my experience, and discussing how far we would be willing to compromise will do nothing if the other side doesn't accept a single compromise. And so far I have not seen that happening.

I agree with many other posters. Adults can present themselves and even call themselves what they want. But it's not possible to change sex, and when you start talking about "living as the opposite sex" it automatically brings in a load of sex based stereotypes which in my opinion harms everyone. The ideology itself reinforces a concept that is harmful to women and men (but more so to women) and that we should be fighting to eliminate. I want rid of gendered assumptions and stereotypes. I'm female, I'll do what I want, dress how I want, and none of that is what makes me a woman. So as I say, people can dress how they want and I will treat them equally to anyone else, but I'm clear they can't change sex and in my mind even trans people that respect single sex spaces are reinforcing gendered stereotypes that are harmful for society.

Well then if you don't mean that they should be allowed in opposite sex spaces but that they should be accepted in general society and not subjected to discrimination, harassment or abuse then you will find no disagreement from me.

Should someone's pleasure come at the expense of someone else's safety, dignity and personhood?

of course people can wear want they want and chose the name they want to be called by. it's no-one else's business and I couldn't stop them even if I could be arsed.

good luck finding an an intellectually coherent middle ground with the kind of narcissist who wants to force others to pretend they can't tell what sex people are

accepting of those who genuinely have body dysmorphia

It’s no longer about those with body dismorphia. The claim that it was about those with body dysmorphia is how the GRA was presented to Parliament twenty years ago. As soon as that had been secured, the campaigning for “demedicalisation” of the gender reassignment process, changing of the terminology used and the broadening of “the trans umbrella”, and the lobbying for self-ID started.

But what do you mean by accepting those who genuinely have body dysmorphia?

Accepting them how? And more importantly, where?

Are you saying that male people who identify as women and have genuine body dysmorphia should be allowed in women's single sex spaces? Or are you saying that we should accept them as they are everywhere except in women's single sex spaces?

I doubt you would find a gender critical feminist anywhere who would disagree with the latter.

Regarding the comparison with transracialism (/blackface), I am trying to think this through.

I think the answer is, it depends.

I think there is a difference between imitating/mocking the natural physical attributes of a different group of people, and just wearing gender non conforming clothes. Clearly, blacking up is always going to be offensive. What's the appropriate comparator to that here? I think that teacher in Canada with the ridiculous fake boobs is offensive. I find it offensive when men who say they identify as women dress up as schoolgirls or wear women's lingerie or skin tight short dresses that basically no woman would be seen dead in. I find Dylan Mulvaney's portrayal of womanhood offensive. But just wearing a dress? Maybe not. I think it depends on the context and whether there's any intention to mock or degrade women.

If you hold gender critical beliefs, do you accept that some people firmly believe they are born in the 'wrong' body,

Sure. Not only do I accept other people's rights to their firm beliefs, I support their right to hold beliefs that I don't share or even that I vehemently disagree with.

and have a right to live as the other sex (up to but not including the point where it would impinge on the rights of that other sex),

I think this is possibly the crux of what "gender critical" means - it means that we are critical of gender itself. If you understand patriarchy to be "a system of social structures and practices in which men dominate, oppress and exploit women" then men being powerful, breadwinning, rulers of the world, made out of little boys who were clever, brave lego-builders while women are supporting, nurturing, keepers of the home, made out of little girls who were dainty pink dolly-cuddlers is integral to that structure. That is what gender is. I cannot subscribe to a system which says that "living as a girl / woman" is equated to femininity under patriarchy.

I think everyone should have the right to dress as they like, enjoy the hobbies they prefer, adopt a name they love, live in romantic relationships with any other consenting adult regardless of sex, and that in an ideal world there would be no such thing as "living as a man / woman" because the whole concept would be redundant.

possibly taking hormones and undergoing surgery? Is this a coherent position to hold?

If a capacitous adult wants to take hormones and undergo surgery I wouldn't want the state to stop them. Any more than the state should stop people getting face tattoos and surgery to give them a forked tongue.