First time poster - question about GC beliefs

Basically my instinct is to attempt to find an intellectually coherent middle ground, accepting of those who genuinely have body dysmorphia but protecting women's spaces. It's difficult!

i think the vast majority of women here were in that place early on. Surely there is a compromise that would please everyone?? But there really isnt

PP have posted about third spaces and why they aren’t going to be answer because TRA won’t accept them. I’d also consider what has also been said (by Datun I think!) that it’s not the spaces per se, it’s the women in the spaces. We are props to a male fantasy. A women’s space with no women in it is worthless to a TRA

A question I have is where are all the late transitioning women? It seems to be young girls and middle aged men. Why is there not broadly a similar number of middle aged women aggressively claiming to be literal men and getting angry than there are men doing so?

(1) "passing" as the opposite sex to a casual observer,
I find the word 'passing' deeply offensive, it suggests something insidious

Even those suffering from extreme dysphoria do not tend to find all of their anxieties are relieved in the longer term by attempting to " pass" as the opposite sex. One can never really be the opposite sex and this fact will always present itself and cause a desgree of dissonance. It is particularly difficult for men to 'pass' as women'; plus radical surgery is a drastic step to take, and one from which there is no return.

I certainly do not think we should be pushing this idea of being" born in the wrong body" onto children. That is gross negligence as far as I am concerned. The process of ego and identity development in childhood and adolescence is often difficult enough without encouraging a belief in the impossible and the unachievable.

"Living as the opposite sex" is founded purely on streotypes and is essentially meaningless; though of course in our society people are largely free to dress how they please and change their name if they so wish. Being a woman is not an identity or a performance - it is biological and psycho-social lived reality.

Women have dignity as adult human females, along with the rights to privacy and safety in certain circumstances on accunt of their sex.

To me it's simple. Where sex matters, be honest about it. Where it genuinely doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.

I can understand wanting to be the opposite sex.

What I don't understand is how a gender identity can "match" a sex. If you ask people why "woman" matches "female" they can't answer. Because then they have to acknowledge that their definition relies on the concept of there being something inherently female about a woman.

If you don't like your body just say so. You don't need to invoke a gender identity that assumes men and women have distinct personalities.

There's no such thing as "born in the wrong body" but it is typical of the over dramatic language from people suffering with Histrionic personality disorder. I'm a woman but I guess I don't live as one because I don't wear high heels and a mini skirt.
JK Rowling put it succinctly and she gets rape and death threats daily.

I think anyone can believe whatever batshit crazy things they want, you can’t control people’s thoughts and you’d be mad to try.

I don’t think people do have the “right” to live as the opposite sex, because no man should be wasting medical time getting a smear or woman getting a prostate exam and really “living as a man/woman” only really comes into play when you get down to the biological functions, otherwise we’re all just living our lives.

I think people can wear what they like, as long as they don’t expect anyone else to pretend they’re something they’re not. But I should also have the right to find a man in women’s clothes ridiculous, the same as I would if a colleague showed up to work in a clown suit and make up.

@AlisonDonut Helen was being super clever saying that. It is something to do with factorial maths where nought is 1 for certain purposes in maths. Frankly i could never get my head around that concept, this is the Joyce genius - she is being straight and ironic at the same time. It’s like her own private joke, IMO, but i could be wrong.

Of course. Nobody cares what someone wears. Most/many of the women here are old embittered hags life-long feminists, gender non conforming, many lesbians and bisexuals, and many of us remember the eighties and have lived roughly happily alongside what used to be called 'transvestites', back before such men decided that actually they were really truly women just like us and were entitled to avail themselves of the spaces and rights our foremothers fought for.

I don't think we have good evidence that surgery and medical transition helps anyone.
I do accept that some people believe they are born in the wrong body. People believe all sorts of odd things and I don't believe in reincarnation either.
If "living as the opposite sex" means a man wearing a dress and calling himself Daphne then I can't stop him, though I don't think it's appropriate to dress in your fetish gear in public.
If he's demanding we call him a woman and let him use our changing rooms he can sod right off.

It is like saying 'do you accept that some people believe that 1 equals zero?'

They might believe it, but it is untrue as if it were true, it would completely break the whole of mathematics.

It's a Helen Joyce concept and it holds the line.

The whole to what extent is it acceptable to involve a non consenting other in your personal self expression is a very significant one here.

This about covers it all.

I used to be in the “dress how you want” camp, but for some of these middle aged males it is so clearly a fetish, and I’m being forced to participate in it without my consent. Even if they’re just walking down the street and not in our single sex spaces, a 60 year old bloke wearing a mini skirt, stockings and prosthetic breasts is publicly flaunting a fetish and that is harmful.

I don’t think there’s a way to stop it (other than bringing back shaming!) but honestly no I’m not OK with it.

Do you accept that some people firmly believe they are born in the 'wrong' body?

Accept that they believe it? Yes, in some cases. Accept that it's true or that people ought to 'be kind' and behave as if it's true even if it isn't? No. To me it's a belief on the same level as believing Jesus Christ is your Lord and Saviour. I will accept the belief; I will support your right to hold the belief, but I will reject very firmly any attempt to coerce me to speak or act as if I too believe it.

and have a right to live as the other sex

This is meaningless to me. If it means 'live according to culturally masculine or feminine stereotypes and claim this makes them the opposite sex' then they're free to do so but I'd find it offensive. Much as I would if someone claimed to 'live as another race' by enacting racist stereotypes.

possibly taking hormones and undergoing surgery?

If they pay for it themselves, it's none of my business. I don't think taxpayers' money should be spent on any of it. I'd support NHS counselling for people suffering from gender dysphoria.

Or do you believe these people should not ever be supported to live as the opposite sex? That doing so is always wrong?

Not wrong so much as impossible. I don't think anyone can 'live as the opposite sex' so I think that 'support' which tells them that they can is ultimately unhelpful.

A few years ago I'd have said that if you're a man who wants to wear a dress and makeup, go ahead, nothing wrong with it. I still think men should be free to do this without harassment. However, I no longer think it's the equivalent of a woman wearing trousers, because of the number of men for whom it is fetishistic. If dressing up in any outfit is a fetish for you, do it in your own home, not in public.

Needless to say, no male person, however they think of themselves or whatever modifications they have made to their body, should be in women's spaces. Even very nice harmless men. My dad is a nice harmless man but I wouldn't bring him in women's facilities - because although I trust him completely, to other women he's a total stranger. Women's spaces aren't prizes for men who are nice, or feminine, or vulnerable. They're for women.

I'm afraid this part was also where I realised that using women, non consenting women, and excluding the ones who couldn't be used, is the goal.

Not an accessible space.

This is the problem. On the surface it seems so possible and easy to find nice answers. And then you start to examine it, and it's very complicated and increasingly grubby as you peel back layers.

Do I feel that men should ever be able to use non consenting women and exclude others with their presence if the woman isn't privileged enough to be ok in mixed sex spaces? Even if the male is very sad and distressed? And there's no escaping the grotty reality that many males are not sad and distressed. They are very, uhm, excited. And stimulated. In their use of women. In a state of undress and vulnerability.

Do I feel that women should have to ever be subjected to that?

No. No, I absolutely do not. I am not going to look any little girl in the face and tell her that her birth right is that she must submit to that so that a male can be happy in claiming that sex does not exist. By which he means is not presenting him with any boundaries to his choices and experiences. Her choices and experiences are not of any interest to him.

Replying to the op and not reading full thread:

People can believe what they like. I don't think that gives them 'rights' beyond the right to believe it. Ie. I can believe I'm a qualified pilot but that doesn't give me the right to fly a plane or sit in the pilot's lounge. Or to demand everyone pretends I'm a pilot too. Separating 'self' from body is a completely spiritual belief and should be treated as one not as a fact.
On the other hand if they just mean they relate more to the opposite sex's customary practices and appearance then carry on. I think gender stereotypes are totally harmful and ludicrous and should be broken down! Women and men should dress and assume what roles they like. This doesn't make anyone a different sex, although if you want to use gender to mean social customs, then sure, it means you can swap genders.
And re. stereotypes, saying you know what the opposite sex feels like or how they think, is playing massively into stereotypes. You feel like a woman? Which one? We all feel differently, as differently as one human from another. All we have in common is a bit of biology which can only be mimicked by surgery and hormones, in the same way youth can only be mimicked by them. Can transgenderism exist without relying on stereotypes? I don't know.

Yes, you're right. I possibly could live as a millionaire. I'm a crap liar, and wouldn't know where to start. But I could try. I'd probably get caught though. Although I could tell the judge I self ID as a millionaire, and therefore I am a millionaire. And be kind.

Also I'm sorry to hear what you are going through with your son. That must be very difficult. I don't actually know how I'd feel if my sons wanted to change their names. I chose them because I love them.

I also really hate the idea that this stuff is boy’s stuff and this stuff is girl’s stuff.

I hated it when I was told I couldn’t do the things I wanted because it was “for boys” and I hate it even more now it’s morphed into “if you like that have you thought you might really be a boy.”

Absolutely.

Third spaces is the perfect example of this.

Loads of people who are mildly gender critical, and even people who consider themselves trans allies and think "TERFs" are terrible people, are in favour of additional, unisex spaces being provided for people who for whatever reason don't feel able to use single sex spaces for members of their own sex.

But try suggesting that to your average trans activist and see what happens. You will be told, "No, third spaces are othering and force us to out ourselves. If they existed, I wouldn't use them, I would continue to use the spaces which align with my gender identity, as I do now."

My evolution from "we should provide additional third spaces" to "we should just make it a criminal offence to be caught in a single sex space for members of the opposite sex" was caused by having that exact conversation once too often.

The intellectually coherent ground is that there are two sexes. Not one person has changed sex and if a man thinks he is 'living as a woman' then he is deluded and needs some sort of therapy.

There isn't a middle ground as soon as you start trying to play make believe.

@Waitwhat23 😂😂😂that was me that was my kind skin was finally pulled of when a few here welcomed me to terfdom, was a happy day.

from @ArabellaScott

I really think it's important to look at this phrase:

to live as the opposite sex

And ask oneself what that actually means.

I will believe that people such as India Willoughby and Freda Wallace honestly believe they are living as women when they go to Afghanistan and live like Afghan women. And not one second before.

For me anyone who believes something (they are too fat when they are clearly anorexit, a woman when they were born a man, etc) have mental health issues that need to be addressed by mental health professionals. They deserve sympathy and understanding. But most of all they deserve treatment to address their mental health issues.