First time poster - question about GC beliefs

I don't disagree with you there.

The important point to recognise here is that people with gender critical beliefs are not a hive mind. We all have slightly different views on things, whilst all essentially sharing the same belief that biological sex matters and should not be secondary to an individual's subjectively experienced gender identity.

My personal red lines are the following:

• We need to have words to clearly define and discuss biological sex. This means we need to have words for members of each sex which expressly include all members of that sex and exclude all members of the opposite sex, regardless of the feelings of members of that sex who wish to identify out of it or members of the opposite sex who wish to identify into it.
• It is particularly important for women and girls, and to a lesser extent men and boys, to have access to single sex spaces from which members of the opposite sex are excluded, in situations where there are issues of safety, dignity and fairness. Not having these spaces results in the exclusion of some people, particularly women and girls, from parts of society, which is unacceptable. I am not conceptually opposed to the provision of additional neutral spaces for trans people, provided that such spaces supplement and do not replace single sex spaces, and provided that trans people then actually use them and do not continue to use single sex spaces for the opposite sex. I would go so far as to say that it should be made a criminal offence to use a single sex space for the opposite sex where an alternative space is available, if people cannot respect these simple rules.
• People with gender dysphoria deserve compassionate, evidence based healthcare. They should have access to support and counselling, but not to hormones or surgery until they are well into adulthood, have undergone extensive therapy, and doctors are satisfied that all other treatment options to help them manage their dysphoria have been completely exhausted.

These three issues, for me, are completely black and white. As far as I'm concerned, all the other issues around gender have shades of grey and should be open for discussion. My feelings around pronouns, or men wearing skirts in public, for example, are not fixed in stone and may evolve depending on arguments put forward by others.

Remember even among TRAs and the trans community there is a sort of division.
Those who believe that being trans is about wanting to be the opposite sex, and as much as possible emulating that.

And those who believe being a man or a woman is solely about how you feel, and that simply saying you feel you are a man/ woman is what makes you one, literally - not figuratively, literally. All women are people, male or female, that "feel like women". No description of what this is, although obviously you need to know what a woman is to decide if you feel like one. That question is never, ever, answered.

(You sometimes get "there are thousands of ways to be a woman!" yet naming even one is impossible)

Interesting how nearly all this discussion is focussing, probably unconsciously, on female - presenting XY chromosome persons , when the majority of people actually applying to ‘change’ their sex are XX chromosome people. Most of them very young…..but the focus even in the pre puberty people is on the XY children , not the majority , who are XX.

These seems to show two things: first, that the consciousness of sex, embedded in every cell of a person’s being, is at the base of our perception of each other, and is intrinsic and insurmountable.

Secondly, that XY people are just more…..important.

I think that you need to ask Trans "Rights" Activists lots of questions, and if they cannot or refuse to answer then they have nothing, and if they do answer then you can judge their words, which I can assure you will be waffle and ignore any and all reasonable concerns.

I think this is very important.

Even if you don’t want to engage with the TRAs who post here, read what they respond with, what they respond to and see what their take is. Because I find it’s not what we’ve all been sympathising with for years, it’s something completely different (whether that’s always been the case or whether assumptions have always been made I do not know.) and it’s very instructive. and they have no answers to any suggestions of compromise.

No disrespect to any of the women (or the few men) but my views have been solidified much more by the TRAs who come here.

For me the other major sticking point is the expansion of what we call trans.

It may have once been someone wearing the clothes of the opposite sex, changing pronouns and getting on with life but now it’s anyone who says they’re trans. Male presenting but she pronouns? Sure. Female presenting, super femme but they pronouns? Why not. Basic cross dressers every other day? You’re in! Tomboyish girl with nerdy interests? Ok!

The very widening of the definition (if there even is a definition) is making the term meaningless. Yet the arguments still rest in the idea of a post op transwoman who passes so well it would be shocking to out them.

Recently we’ve been told we haven’t thought how dangerous third spaces would be for TW (it’s on the 15 year old says bullying is rife thread) as though half the males claiming to be women/she/her pronouns are considered anything but men.

once you start digging into it the only solution is to stand with women and girls first.

I'm critical of gender. This means that I object to society's attempts to force gendered expectations and value judgments onto inanimate objects and concepts like dresses, makeup and housework.

Doing the laundry isn't women's work and wearing a dress doesn't make you a woman, any more than me wearing trousers or enjoying a track day in a fast car makes me a man.

It's not possible to be born in the wrong body because bodies aren't right or wrong, they are just bodies. It's entirely possible to be uncomfortable that you're one sex when you really strongly wish you were the other sex, but no amount of hormones or surgery will do anything except alter the appearance a bit.

So, how should society handle some of this stuff? The following are my opinions and may be subject to change as my thinking develops.

It's ok for anyone to wear anything.
It's ok for women to be the breadwinner and men to be the stay at home parent and any other combination that works for any couple.
It's ok for adults to seek to permanently alter their appearance, whether with tattoos, piercings, drugs or surgery. Not ok for children.

I'm yet to be convinced it's ok for that to be publicly funded on the NHS.

We treat anorexia with therapy, not diet and exercise plans.
We treat drug and alcohol addiction with therapy not drugs and alcohol.
Maybe we should treat dysmorphia with therapy before drugs and surgery?

None of this alters the fact that your biological sex is set at conception and remains throughout your life. Also, where it really matters in law and in public policy, decisions should be made on the basis of sex not gender. Sex is immutable, gender is conceptual. Let's keep the law based on fact and evidence.

I think that there are coherent arguments to be made that even requesting wrong-sex pronouns is an imposition on others (forcing them to play along or take a stand), and that if we believe in universal free healthcare we need to reduce the amount of money spent on unnecessary "healthcare", including opposite sex cosmetic surgery and undoing the damage of wrong sex hormones.

We all know the difference between men and women and it changes how we relate them in ways that are socially significant and not always negative.

Can.you give some non-negative examples, @TempestTost? I can't think of any that are not either based on sterotypes (and therefore harmful), or based on the reality of sexed bodies (and therefore irrelevant to somebody with a body of the other sex).

You should read Dr Em's latest essay:
https://uncommongroundmedia.com/understanding-your-nigella-the-harms-of-transvestic-paraphilia/

Even if people do believe this, they need to come to terms with the fact that they are factually wrong. Like anorexics believe they are overweight. They need help to change that.

Saying anyone can be born in the wrong body is an insult to those of use who live with disfiguring illnesses and disability. Where is my support to change my body? Nowhere! You get what you get and you live in it.

I think that you need to ask Trans "Rights" Activists lots of questions, and if they cannot or refuse to answer then they have nothing, and if they do answer then you can judge their words, which I can assure you will be waffle and ignore any and all reasonable concerns.

(1) What do you mean by "trans" and what do you think others mean by it? I cannot see that there is any definition much better than "a male or female person who makes the claim that they are trans, a claim that cannot be verified as honest let alone verified as meaning anything".

(2) I accept that some people firmly believe they were born in the wrong body, but I believe this is out of date language in transworld. No-one is born in the wrong body, and the very idea is pretty offensive to disabled people. Incidentally why is pretending to be the sex you are not and using women's toilets ok, but pretending your legs don't work and wheeling yourself into the disabled isn't?

(3) How does one "live as the opposite sex" other than by mimicking the opposite sex and by destroying the single sex nature of the facilities that the opposite sex use? I do not believe opposite sex mimickry and single sex space destruction are at all admirable. In fact I think the latter should be punished and the former strongly discouraged. I think one "right" people have is the right to - broadly speaking - be able to accurately judge the age and sex of the people you come into contact with in day to day life, or rather they have a right not to be deceived, as they will potentially completely change how they interact with someone dependent on whether they are male or female, adult or child.

(4) At the very minimum taking hormones without prescription should be illegal, and anyone getting hormones or surgery should be made to sign a public register confirming their understanding that we live in a sex-based world and no-one changes sex.

(5) It is not coherent to think that anyone can live as the opposite sex through mimickry, nor does a man being in a women's toilet make him a woman. But it does destroy women's rights.

(6) I believe that all people who claim to be trans broadly fall into one of the following categories - one was a term that mumsnet didn't like and I won't risk but involves a paraphilia; the second includes those with gender dysphoria (or "sex specific body dysmorphia" as I prefer to refer to it), other mental illness and / or trauma response; the third are simple opportunistic predators who are saying they are trans. I have zero sympathy for the first and third category and the middle category need mental health support, proper support.

Generally my view is 'you do you, just don't expect me to compromise my own beliefs to validate yours'

By that I mean wear what you like, call yourself what you like but don't expect me to pretend that you are what you aren't

Sinead Watson, a detransitioned woman who spent several years "living as a man" is very clear about what it means to "live as" the opposite sex.

She says it means cross dressing, changing your pronouns, and if you are a man, using women's single sex spaces. That's all.

There are no clothes, names, grooming choices, jobs, hobbies, which are only available to members of one sex. People can do what they want. They can't change sex.

Wrong bodies?

I'm short sighted, I have had to wear glasses from the age of 8 (ish). It made me a focus of bullying, limits my ability to play sports, shapes the way I interact with other people and with the world around me (for good and ill). But it isn't a 'wrong body' It's my body and I just have to live in it the best way I can. Many people have far worse bodily infirmities that limit and shape their lives.

Being the sex one is, is not an infirmity or disability, and should not restrict how one lives. Counties that make it into something that limits lives and potential (classic example at the moment is Afghanistan) are seen as bad. Yet people who want to push the idea of 'gender' as a real thing are all about making sex something that is limiting and prescriptive, so that anyone who want to live outside their prescriptive view of what a man or a woman is has to adopt a 'gender identity' in order to do so.

f that.

Hi OP, been in the GC trenches for two years now, welcome.

I agree with other pps the phrase 'living as the opposite sex' is playing into the stereotype playbook that this movement hinges on and I would no longer use it.

I recommend Trans by Helen Joyce who explores in-depth the history behind so called medical transition and poses some excellent questions. I believe that adults should be free to make changes to their bodies and I believe gender dysphoria is a real thing. However, like the woman addicted to plastic surgeries who still thinks she looks awful, I'm skeptical that interventions could cure those feelings long term.

To me there's also a difference in dysphoria between a young lesbian woman who has been told repeatedly she's different by idiot peers - to a man so fixated in fetish he wants to get a set of breasts and call himself a lesbian. Both of these people need help for sure.

That's to mention nothing of the health issues with surgeries / opposite sex hormones in healthy bodies. In short it's a mess and I'm at the very least a skeptic and think that these surgeries probably should not be available on the NHS.

What I'm completely sure of though is keeping all this at bay from children.

“But he is not, he is living as his idea of a woman. Even if he perfectly apes this cultural womanhood to the degree others perceive him as a woman, he is still only mimicking his own superficial, external view of women. Because the path by which the actual women came to those feelings and behaviours and preferences is entirely different to the one he has taken, one he can never experience or understand because for women it's the mostly unconcious internalising of cumulative experiences that started the day they were born female, while for trans women it's a conscious decision to change their presentation and behaviours to follow those of "women".”

Exactly. It’s women as avatars.

Living "as a" woman....which woman?

The only things all women have in common are a female body and the experience of living in a female body. Everything else is cultural.

Now, women within one culture may well have further commonalities as they have more shared experiences and are subject to to the same gendered influences. And yes, a man from that culture could ape those women and believe himself to be living "as a woman".

But he is not, he is living as his idea of a woman. Even if he perfectly apes this cultural womanhood to the degree others perceive him as a woman, he is still only mimicking his own superficial, external view of women. Because the path by which the actual women came to those feelings and behaviours and preferences is entirely different to the one he has taken, one he can never experience or understand because for women it's the mostly unconcious internalising of cumulative experiences that started the day they were born female, while for trans women it's a conscious decision to change their presentation and behaviours to follow those of "women".

So I can't say I'm "ok" with men claiming to live "as" women, because they are still reducing womanhood and women's lives to a superficial external performance.

I think of it like any other sexist belief system, of which there are, sadly, a lot. To the degree that it's legal I can't stop someone believing it or acting in line with their beliefs. I can even accept that people with some beliefs I find regressive and harmful can in other ways be lovely, generous, valuable people who give a lot socially to the community. I can respect thoe parts of them and rub along pretty well. But I don't have to validate or be OK beliefs I find actively harmful.

“However, I do think it can be understood in a way that is coherent. We are social beings and in some ways who we are as social beings comes from how we are reflected on others. If we are an important elder in the community, we are treated differently than a child, and there are a number of things wrapped up in that - our age and generation (which is objective,) but also how other perceive and relate to us, and then also how we internalize that recognition and reflect it back.”

“So I understand "living as a woman" in this context to mean superficially taking on certain social markers conventionally associated with women, having others relate to us as if that were so, and internalizing that social "recognition".”

Except, Tempest that people relate to these male people as ‘male people who wish to be perceived as a woman’ rather than those people relating to a woman.

Therefore it loses its coherency in my opinion.

We have also seen just how ‘male’ these male people with trans identities remain even after transitioning very young. We see it in their reactions to having their belief that they are a girl or a woman rejected. Those reactions are too often misogynistic, narcissistic, and filled with male entitlement and socialisation.

For all those, including OP, who are looking for links to important cases, studies and papers, or guidance / policies etc, don’t forget the Break It Down thread.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?latest=0

The start of the thread was an interesting discussion but the thread morphed into a reference thread. There is also links to some of the studies/ papers etc that you see referenced by extreme trans activists there too so that people can find them by using the ‘save thread’ or bookmarking function on MN .

Sex is immutable. You can't live as the opposite sex because there is no way to change sex.

Gender is a social construct. You can put on stereotypical trappings of the opposite gender (name, clothes, pronouns) if you want to. I have some mixed feelings about this though. While I'm happy for anyone of any sex to wear anything / call themselves anything etc. and fundamentally think we should work towards dismantling ideas around gender, what is happening at the moment is people are reinforcing gender stereotypes by putting on a dress and saying that makes them a woman.

I think my position is I'm more than happy for you to be a man, wearing a dress you like and using whatever name you prefer and having cosmetic surgery if you want (or a woman doing the same) as long as it's clear it has no effect on your sex and doesn't somehow impact your role in society. Alongside this sex based differences remain important and protections for those need to stay in place.

I’m very much of a belief that individuals should live the life they choose. I also think that if you are making permanent changes to your body that there should be counselling/ safeguards.

However your choices shouldn’t impinge on other peoples lives so should respect single sex spaces / sports.

Maybe, I don't suppose that any of us have a "right" to ask others to relate to us as if we are something we are not.

Sometimes people take it to mean something more direct though, as if a dog can live as a cat. Which is obviously impossible.

But I think what's meant when people talk that way is about social relations. We all relate to others in certain ways, and sometimes they can be quite formalized and even artificial. What's being recognized is something that isn't actually inherent to the person's nature. None of that is specifically about sex or gender, it's just the nature of being a social species with self-conciousness. We can imbue a person with all kinds of significances we know aren't really there, usually we do it for some purpose.

There's a tendency for gc people to suggest or imply sometimes that anything like this between males and females is only sexism, and I don't think that's true. We all know the difference between men and women and it changes how we relate them in ways that are socially significant and not always negative.

Is it a sensible, justified, useful, or in any other way a good idea to pretend to see and then treat people as if they were the opposite sex? I am not really convinced, but I don't think that it is impossible in the sense that it would be impossible for a man to "be" a woman..

If an individual did these things, but stopped short of entering single sex only spaces or competing in single sex sports, for example - would that be ok to a GC feminist?

In that they have freedom of expression, yes. But I'm not prepared to lie that I believe they are a woman.

As far as I know, nought is never 1 in maths. I think you are referring to 0! = 1 [nought factorial equals one] which is correct, though perhaps unintuitive.

So I understand "living as a woman" in this context to mean superficially taking on certain social markers conventionally associated with women, having others relate to us as if that were so, and internalizing that social "recognition".

There is a part of this sentence which is problematic: having others relate to us as if that were so. A transwoman has no right to "have someone relate" to them in any particular way. Indeed, none of us has that right. You can relate to me in any way you please; I can’t reasonably tell you or make you relate to me as I would like you to. This applies even in the closest of relationships. I have no right to require my wife or my mother to relate to me as I dictate.

@MargotBamborough has pretty much summed up how I feel.