Sharron Davies in the Times

*of

I was thinking the same about gymnastics. I've seen videos online if male gymnasts trying to do female disciplines, and they mostly fail spectacularly (and vice versa the females).

Well quite, Alec.

Parkrun is both non competitive and in fact not even a sport - but simultaneously Parkrun records are made and new records are celebrated.

Holding these two opposing facts as both true is quite the act, isn't it.

re: parkrun not being competitive...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/67811741

Mara Yamauchi is also outspoken about this on twitter or X.
She made several comments when Caster Semenya (I know they're not trans....but they also aren't biologically female) was doing interviews to publicise their book, and she has also made comment on parkruns stance on gender v biological sex

Well that’s good news. I wonder if British Gymnastics will at some point? Although the disciplines in gymnastics are so different and tailored to each sex’s strengths I can’t see males having anything other than a massive disadvantage competing in the women’s sport - probably why we haven’t seen any…

The Guardian could say 'insistence on this issue is gifting an obvious sensible campaign issue to otherwise notably anti-women right-wing organisations'. Maybe one day they will.

As for Natalie - mixed sex sport is great. Loads of us love getting stuck in to mixed sport at grass roots level. Everybody loved the mixed sex triathlons etc at the Tokyo Olympics (especially Brits, because we won). That has nothing to do with male people entering themselves in female categories with nationally approved paperwork saying they are a different sex, and I have to ask why you are confusing the two things.

I should have realised that you would already have added this link to the thread, Bore! 😀

But surely in Guardian-speak “right wing” is a dog whistle and is indicative of a moral panic? I think that’s how it works?

England hockey have said they’ll produce revised guidelines on transgender players in sept 24 (no fucking rush!!) but yes I agree

Thanks for sharing the links. That article from Daley Thompson was very good, (can't currently read the Sharron Davies one due to paywall but her recent book was excellent).

Ali Miraj currently doing this topic for the next hour on LBC (TW in women's sport that is).

Have you forgotten all the talk years ago about 'the looney left'? If the Guardian can be accused of using 'right-wing' as an implicit insult (although it's really in the eye of the beholder), then the right-wing press (which is most of 'em) certainly do the reverse, in spades. But as has often been pointed out before, there is nothing 'left-wing' about the gender movement, on the contrary, its concentration on 'the few, not the many' is anything but. Unfortunately, most of the Guardian's journalists don't seem to see this, with a few notable exceptions.

This relentless use of "right-wing" as an insult is eventually going to be counterproductive. When identity loons decide that the only answer to a newspaper or a think tank raising legitimate, rational points about the flaws in gender ideology is to say that it is (gasp!) "right-wing", then I suppose we are all supposed to think: "Oh no! Being right-wing is the worst thing in the world! I'd better stop believing in biological reality and fairness for women."

Instead, I'm pretty sure that many people's response is to think: "OK, if believing that men can't be women, and that women shouldn't be forced to run races against 15 stone, 6ft 6" hairy-bollocked men is right-wing, then maybe I'm right-wing."

Why does it have to only matter if it is a record? Every weekend it is now reported that at least one male is winning a park run.

Why do the women and girls running not deserve those wins? Because they are not record setting wins?

And if those women and girls stop bothering because they won’t win? Is that a desirable outcome? That is ok?

In fact, if it's fine to upset people if it's an EXTREMELY small example, then let's upset the men with trans identities, because they're a much smaller sample than the women they are disadvantaging.

@Froodwithatowel (cool name) makes an excellent point which we should be repeating ad nauseam ad infinitum when confronted with people like parkrun and the "but it's only a few" brigade

TBH I’m not sure why Parkrun are feeling the heat at the moment while Hockey England and British Gymnastics are completely asleep at the wheel.

I'm glad parkrun have been called out on this yet again.

They either have to scrap all times or make it fair for women by at least removing the course records stolen by men, especially the one done for attempted murder. I run but stopped volunteering months ago.

I would agree that it's reasonable for the Guardian to report on a think tank's funding and political allegiances, providing they're equally scrupulous whether the think tank leans left or right. Maybe they already are and I've missed it? I do seem to have missed their coverage of this story so I stand corrected on that.

This is an EXTREMELY small example when over 100,000 people in the UK benefit from running parkruns every week, and not one from which you can extrapolate that 'parkrun hates and disrespects women'.

How many women do you feel is an appropriate number to sacrifice to male ego and self expression before women are permitted to extrapolate that this is fantastically sexist and disrespectful to their sex? Are you happy to explain to these women that their personal loss is something they should suck up for the greater good of men being happy in their self expression?

And how many men are being similarly sacrificed to women's egos?

In fact, if it's fine to upset people if it's an EXTREMELY small example, then let's upset the men with trans identities, because they're a much smaller sample than the women they are disadvantaging.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001tqzd

They also discussed this on The World At One (about 20 minutes or so in). I didn't know the name of the person interviewed but she was very clear. Park Run were invited to come on the programme but did not take up the invitation.

@334bu I can’t read that but the US cycling scene is a law unto itself. The majority of races are unregulated by any governing body and don’t even dope test - they’re mostly organised by commercial organisations who make up their own rules and are not beholden to USA Cycling or the UCI. In the rest of the cycling world males have been banned from competing in the female category since the ban introduced by the UCI in July, following on from British Cycling’s ban in May.

Just when I thought I couldn't despise the Guardian more...

Note that the story was written by Paul MacInnes. Their main sports writer, Sean Ingle, is much more alert to the problems of allowing men to compete in women's sport.

@thehopefulgardener if Park Run is not a competitive sport why are there men and women’s course records?

Giving individual times so individuals can track improvements etc. is fine. The minute you publish a list of times makes it competitive. Splitting times into Men’s and Women’s and age categories and publishing them makes it competitive.

Mara Yamauchi was interviewed on BBC Radio 4 World At One today about Park Run. She was very good, very clear.
Starts about 25 mins in
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001tqzd