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RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 30/12/2023 20:34

Being rather pedantic, I noticed that Helen Joyce was a little less clear than usual. It’s not like her to misquote a statistic, but the figure for people with DSDs which unreasonably includes such conditions as PCOS should have been 1.7%, not 2.7%. 1.7% is still a huge exaggeration.

dapsnotplimsolls · 30/12/2023 20:24

Great interview, thank you for posting this.

Crouton19 · 30/12/2023 16:03

Jesse Singal reviewed Helen Joyce's book for the NYT, IIRC and has been very positive about her work and Hannah Barnes, Kathleen Stock etc.

ZuttZeVootEeeVo · 30/12/2023 15:51

Herzog and Singal are, as you say, not right wing but do you think that they’re almost perversely open-minded about this issue?

His wiki page describes him as "one of the most prominent journalists working in the area of transgender issues". And i know he has recieved a lot of personal abuse from TRA. Even this year he was set up on a liberal podcast.

But i think this has led him to assume he is the expert on this topic - so doesnt need to talk to another journalist like helen joyce, and doesnt want to associate with JKJ because that will spoil his journist credentials.

He seems to be trutrans, which is an idea popular a few years ago and which each side has largely abandoned. And a big hole that he isnt addressing in his theory that some children may benefit from transitioning, is the fact that diagnosis is unreliable. I dont think he wants to go down that root and be seen as a conspiracy theorist.

Everytime i listen to blocked and reported, katie is just talking about her dog.

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 30/12/2023 14:48

I'd take a sideline job to pay for coaching from Helen Joyce. 😍

Me too, that would be amazing. Yes, just imagine if there were suddenly loads of women who could talk as lucidly and confidently as HJ does, it would be brilliant.

UtopiaPlanitia · 30/12/2023 14:33

DeanElderberry · 30/12/2023 10:27

I find it hard to place Katie Herzog or Jesse Singal anywhere in a far right, religious cranks, wingnuts and misogynists club, and they seem to have plenty of followers despite the efforts of the genderists.

Show quote history

Herzog and Singal are, as you say, not right wing but do you think that they’re almost perversely open-minded about this issue?

They cover the harms that medical procedures cause to gender questioning children but, Singal particularly, still say that some children are 'trans' and need these procedures for a happy life.

Herzog is less in favour of it than Singal, I think that’s because she’s seen a social contagion aspect to it in her community, especially with butch lesbians, but she’s still not interested in reporting on AGP and the dangers for women and children. It seems as though their Liberal credentials are more important to them than taking a stance on the dangers of medical procedures and fetishes being acted out in public.

I’d love them to interview KJK and others from Terf Island but they have no interest, other than speaking to Helen Lewis, (who is also stubbornly Liberal on this issue in spite of mounting evidence) it would seem. I think a discussion between them and someone like Helen Joyce would be really fascinating. They’ve discussed her book, I’d love to see them discuss it with her.

Katie has guested on podcasts like Meghan Murphy’s, and I’ve heard her on other nominally GC podcasts, where she is more critical of how Queer theory has impacted lesbians but then she goes back to a middle of the road opinion on Blocked & Reported. I find them interesting but very confusing.

AlisonDonut · 30/12/2023 14:21

I know it isn't UK based but the best podcast I've found if you want a female focused analysis on major issues, even though they say it is Aussie or NZ based, this is the podcast for you.

Edie Wyatt and Kit Kowalski. I still can't get my head around why this doesn't get thousands upon thousands of views, it is brilliant every time.

https://youtube.com/@wttdollhouse?si=LAC_WmBm5Y6TP7rT

Original poster
RethinkingLife · 30/12/2023 14:20

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 30/12/2023 14:11

@RethinkingLife Helen Joyce having a sideline in coaching is just what me and Mr Veg have been talking about. She is so articulate and lucid, plus she has such a good speaking voice.

I sent a link the vid in the OP to my GC cousin, which she enjoyed very much but she also told me HJ is new to her, which surprised me greatly. I sent the link to HJ being interviewed by Richard Dawkins and hope she enjoys that too.

I'd take a sideline job to pay for coaching from Helen Joyce. 😍

Could you imagine a cadre of women who were able to speak and present as well as HJ? It would be invaluable across a range of life domains as well as making it more plausible that there would be a more substantial pool of women available for podcast interviews etc.

MSM and podcast hosts quite frequently say that it's not that they don't want to interview women (we'll put aside HJ's special circumstances) but there aren't women who are available to do it. I acknowledge there's a separate issue of being willing to be an 'expert' given the attitude to women experts (Dale Spender's famous finding that there's no such thing as a female expert over the age of 9) plus the foul SM commentary on attractiveness etc. I think HJ touches on this in the conversation with AG.

OP posts:
UtopiaPlanitia · 30/12/2023 14:12

WarriorN · 30/12/2023 08:12

Utopia both the Netflix and prime documentaries about that are similarly 🤪😵‍💫🙃😱

Ooooh, I shall watch those too then. Thanks for letting me know about them 👍

Vegemiteandhoneyontoast · 30/12/2023 14:11

@RethinkingLife Helen Joyce having a sideline in coaching is just what me and Mr Veg have been talking about. She is so articulate and lucid, plus she has such a good speaking voice.

I sent a link the vid in the OP to my GC cousin, which she enjoyed very much but she also told me HJ is new to her, which surprised me greatly. I sent the link to HJ being interviewed by Richard Dawkins and hope she enjoys that too.

Original poster
RethinkingLife · 30/12/2023 13:45

I sometimes think Helen Joyce could have an excellent sideline in coaching others to have an authoritative manner and way of speaking. I know much of this is grounded in her deep knowledge and expertise in a range of fields (maths, journalism, economics) but her voice and presentation style are very effective.

As above, I'd very much like HJ and MF to have a Sex Matters podcast that explores policy, law, economics etc.. Imagine them with the fabulous triumvirate of MBM (Murray Blackburn Mackenzie). I would trust that powerhouse to influence the course of women's rights far more than Fawcett, Women's Budget Group, Women's Equality Party…

OP posts:
Abhannmor · 30/12/2023 11:26

ChanelNo19EDT · 30/12/2023 10:16

@MouseAnon89 Interesting to hear you say you know AG. He comes across as a real people pleaser, I think that's what will prevent him from getting the big numbers. Even when HJ said something about a conversation she'd had with a rabbi, he couldn't just laugh at the humour in that interaction, he instantly had to come in with ''what are they up to?'' (Orthodox Jewish Rabbis). He had no reason to think that the Rabbi that HJ spoke to was up to anything. I'm not Jewish but I feel that he cannot even stand behind his own background, his own upbringing. His religion is to be on the fence. Bizarrely, while I don't know HJ's brothers, I met a few of them at least once when we were growing up. My Dad has an interest in a sport that is quite niche in Ireland and that's how I met her brothers.

Niche sport in Ireland. My first thought was handball. But it has to be cricket!

morningtoncrescent62 · 30/12/2023 10:37

I do hope 2024 will be the year when Helen Joyce gets the mainstream coverage she deserves. She's brilliant to listen to. I agree that the Heretics podcast makes a good explainer for beginners, but as someone who's been following for years now, I was riveted. The BBC needs to get her on.

RoyalCorgi · 30/12/2023 10:37

Abhannmor · 30/12/2023 00:20

At least GC ppl in the UK and Ireland are all across the spectrum. In the USA most seem to be pretty far right and include a fair few religious cranks, wingnuts and misogynists. Of course this is not the case for most ordinary decent ppl I hasten to add - was thinking more of the prominent media types.

I have a few left-wing friends in the US who are gender-critical. They're too scared to speak out, though. It's a sad state of affairs.

Original poster
RethinkingLife · 30/12/2023 10:35

WarriorN · 30/12/2023 08:11

Gosh the Sonia Poulton one 👀

I admire the publicity she's brought to DV.

The only dominant UK podcast I know is Steve Bartlett's Diary of a CEO. Are there others I should sample to have some sense of the UK podcast landscape given that I'm starting from almost zero?

OP posts:
DeanElderberry · 30/12/2023 10:27

Abhannmor · 30/12/2023 00:20

At least GC ppl in the UK and Ireland are all across the spectrum. In the USA most seem to be pretty far right and include a fair few religious cranks, wingnuts and misogynists. Of course this is not the case for most ordinary decent ppl I hasten to add - was thinking more of the prominent media types.

I find it hard to place Katie Herzog or Jesse Singal anywhere in a far right, religious cranks, wingnuts and misogynists club, and they seem to have plenty of followers despite the efforts of the genderists.

ChanelNo19EDT · 30/12/2023 10:16

@MouseAnon89 Interesting to hear you say you know AG. He comes across as a real people pleaser, I think that's what will prevent him from getting the big numbers. Even when HJ said something about a conversation she'd had with a rabbi, he couldn't just laugh at the humour in that interaction, he instantly had to come in with ''what are they up to?'' (Orthodox Jewish Rabbis). He had no reason to think that the Rabbi that HJ spoke to was up to anything. I'm not Jewish but I feel that he cannot even stand behind his own background, his own upbringing. His religion is to be on the fence. Bizarrely, while I don't know HJ's brothers, I met a few of them at least once when we were growing up. My Dad has an interest in a sport that is quite niche in Ireland and that's how I met her brothers.

ChanelNo19EDT · 30/12/2023 10:12

Oh yes, her description of Freida Wallace in his fish net tights was horrendous.

I really enjoyed Richard Dawkins interview with HJ, as he kept up and even in parts where he thought that men who had bottom surgery deserved to be considered women, she was able to set him right. No, it's not a prize for effort. I feel that he got it, in the moment.

MouseAnon89 · 30/12/2023 09:56

Helen Joyce was very good in this interview as per usual. Think she needs to be awarded the Victoria Cross for appearing in that awful panel alongside peter tatchell and that weird fetish bloke in fishnets (who is quite clearly trolling women, hence I feel ok with describing him this way).

As an aside, I know Andrew and he’s a really good guy. And I’m a nobody ie not fellow a journalist / successful media player building him up or anything like that (I assume they all do that for each other a bit like real celebrities do - that really winds me up!). How he is in interviews is pretty much what he’s like IRL. Reasonable and rational, likes to see things from all sides. He’s genuine and very nice (but not in a “just be kind” way, haha).

WarriorN · 30/12/2023 08:12

Utopia both the Netflix and prime documentaries about that are similarly 🤪😵‍💫🙃😱

WarriorN · 30/12/2023 08:11

Gosh the Sonia Poulton one 👀

UtopiaPlanitia · 30/12/2023 01:05

Thanks for the link Rabbitwoman, I’m looking forward to watching that 👍

I’ve queued up a few Andrew Gold interviews: Francis Foster, Peter Boghossian, Richard Dawkins, Graham Linehan, and Helen Joyce. I’m watching Helen’s at the mo. Must say tho, Andrew picked a rotten thumbnail for her interview - why he decided on that particular image I dunno but I hope he changes it.

I also listened to the podcast Andrew did about the Twin Flames cult while I was doing the washing up - that stuff is proper bonkers 🤪🤯

rabbitwoman · 30/12/2023 00:43

Andrew gold has interviewed glinner!!! And Richard Dawkins, who was very GC in his interview..... He must know the key arguments by now, and as he said to Helen, he can't get anyone from the opposing team to come on his show!!

But it still blows my mind how little most people know about this..... I watched the triggernometry 2023 round up the other day, with Andrew Doyle and Geoff norcott. They talked about the GC stuff at length and Geoff norcott said several times that he didn't know any of the stuff they were talking about, it had 'blown his mind.' he obviously had some very 'be kind, let people be themselves' ideas to begin with, but it was the Tavistock stuff and Stonewall calling lesbians bigots for not sleeping with trans women that he didn't seem to know about...... On the whole this is still a mystery to most people, even prolific commentators like Norcott. Due to the media black out I should think....

A decent watch:

Comedians Review 2023 - Andrew Doyle & Geoff Norcott X TRIGGERnometry

💥Join us on our Journey to 1 Million Subscribers💥Andrew Doyle is a comedian, broadcaster and friend of the show.Geoff Norcott Comedian and host of the What...

https://youtu.be/5yZ9EtUwBn8?si=DXseVdjHfWsh3cYy

Abhannmor · 30/12/2023 00:20

At least GC ppl in the UK and Ireland are all across the spectrum. In the USA most seem to be pretty far right and include a fair few religious cranks, wingnuts and misogynists. Of course this is not the case for most ordinary decent ppl I hasten to add - was thinking more of the prominent media types.

duc748 · 29/12/2023 23:22

I started off thinking i'll just watch a bit of this, but of course I watched it all; Helen speaks so well. As she rightly said, that footage of Peter and Freda was hilarious! My DS, God love him, is a David Lloyd member down in ThatLondon, and I'm going to find it hard to resist asking about the noises in the showers! 😆