Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

Yes, absolutely. These are good examples of my point. Language can evolve and meanings can change, but it needs a critical mass of people to buy in. As does language staying the same. It's about what's happening on a societal level, that's how naming systems and titles function.

@RebelliousCow I suppose it boils down to the idea that having equal value does not mean being the same.

The idea that sexes are somehow fighting against each other also omits the fact that we are all humans and humans can get along with other humans who happen to have some different characteristics. What extreme feminism forgets is that most women have at least few men in their lives that they simply like

Although with all that said, I am more than happy with "male activists" to stay in their basements

@TrashedSofa first-born so inheriting everything simply increased the chances of family fortune remaining intact. Cruel, yes, but for all involved (except for first born sons, lucky *).

As for titles - they DO change meaning, this is why in some countries title that was previously associated with being married (all equivalents of Mrs) is now a neutral title used for all adult women. Language evolves to suit the needs of people using it.

For example, in Poland on forms you can only tick "Pan" or "Pani" (Mr or Mrs), there is no "Panna" on the form and an adult woman would be very offended if you called her that even if she was unmarried

Andrea Dworkin's writing is profound, but also extreme; and when you get into her work you end up full of rage, anger and even hatred; but it is not healthy to be permanently enraged. And when you view everything in terms of 'patriarchal oppression' you see it everywhere. Same with any other worldview which is based on perceptions of hierarchies of power and oppression. When it becomes this way, feminism can be just as bad as any other form of Intersectionalist grievance taken to extreme.

Relations between men/male and women/female have developed around the basic differences between the sexes - and have then hardened or become encoded into social practices and expectations of the sexes, depending on the period in time, or the culture.

In the animal kingdom the biggest and strongest tends to call the shots, or can certainly exert its power over others through sheer brute force. And in this way males seek to exert control.Human civilisation is about taming and channeling/controlling the animal instincts to a large degree, so that human/social values and ideas can be nurtured and even flourish, even though the more instinctive forces always lie beneath the surface.

The inherent differences between the sexes will always be there, and the best we can hope for is to ameliorate or eliminate any unnecessary hurdles on the path towards' equality' - but at the end of the day the fact of our biology; the fact that it is women who become pregnant and give birth and the subtle differences that arise from those facts are best accommodated in the most equitable ways possible.

At the most extreme you can end up advocating for some kind of separatism. -whether that is lesbian separatism or the kind of separatism espoused by men's rights activists - where they disavow any contact or relationship with women. But most people do seek relationship, or are in relationship with members of the opposite sex - so relationships do have to be managed in as reasonable and healthy was as possible.

Ok but you did write 'or tell them that their choice is anti feminist or feminist that I will always say STFU'. I'm glad you don't think we should be responding by telling other women to STFU when we talk about this though, I completely agree with you.

In terms of disagreement that those things are facts, if you want to say that naming and title traditions impact on other people, that's the sort of claim that needs explanation. Because that is literally how they work, especially titles. They signify things, and for that to happen we're reliant on other people to play along.

We all know what eg Mrs or Reverend mean because a sufficiently critical mass of people use them to mean a thing. If all of a sudden Mrs started being used exclusively by unmarried women or, I dunno, people who work in retail or come from Yorkshire or something, it would soon take on another meaning. The actions of those people would impact on you, too, because people would start thinking if you used Mrs that you were in fact signifying something else (if you are in fact from Yorkshire and/or work in retail please substitute something that doesn't apply lol). Similarly, when you get married and you take on your husband's name, people also know what that means. It has a history and connotations that we don't get to opt out of as individuals, because the only way that changes is if enough people do it. If none of this were true, the names and titles people use would just be random meaningless syllables. They're not.

Also, patriarchal and patrilineal aren't two mutually exclusive terms. Something can be both, and Anglo surname traditions are. One of the definitions of patriarchy in the Cambridge dictionary is a society controlled by men, and obviously we wouldn't have evolved the patrilineal naming system we did without a patriarchal society.

Whilst I agree with you 100% about how girls are socialised, I don't think that telling women they are letting themselves down by doing things like wearing makeup etc is helpful or productive. As a woman, I have spent my life being told how I should be, what I should wear, how I should present myself etc by society and to be honest, yet another voice telling me what I should do, be, wear etc just makes me feel nothing but rage, frankly. I am utterly sick of being told what I should be doing.

I run my own business- started it from scratch, and have won diversity/inclusion awards for it. I also wear makeup because I like it. I do it for me, and I do it even if I'm not leaving the house because I like the way I look with it. Are those two things incompatible?- should I not do something I enjoy doing just for the sake of trying to promote female acceptance? Where does my "responsibility" for this start and end? I think we should be focusing on dismantling the patriarchal society we live in, rather than berating women for the things they do.

I love wearing makeup up and heels and shaving my legs! The only criticism I've ever had for these things are from other women - surely women should support women to be strong and make their own choices? FWIW I am the main wage earner in my home and can't think when I've ever had to ask anyone for relationship advice as I'm very confident in knowing who I am and what is acceptable to me.

@WhatWouldJeevesDo back in those days not inheriting land from your parents meant you had to work for someone working their land, and by all means that meant being screwed over

Having to earn a living means being screwed over?

@MercanDede I agree witch all of what you've said

and I would also add that people, despite all of the influence of our surroundings, are very much active participants in that society and we control our actions

That's why you can have two people growing up and living in the exactly the same environment and, despite sharing a lot of similarities, they will not have all the same values and beliefs.

That's why not every man runs away from housework and not every woman is this hard-working hero victimised by patriarchy

We all pick and choose what suits and bothers us

and before anyone shouts about how inheritance through a male line was unfair, please consider that European system of patrilineal system actually screwed over more men than women.

First-born sons were given majority of inheritance, daughters got dowry, subsequent sons got pat on the back and maaaaybe sent to be a priest if family could afford it.

We often blame ourselves for being ‘good girls’ or the patriarchy when things go to shit. That’s the influence of the patriarchy imho.

A misogynist husband doesn’t mean that marriage is misogynist and society is to blame, hence feminism is the answer. Nor does it mean the woman screwed up by being a ‘good girl.’

The twat of a misogynist husband is to blame. Transferring the cause and responsibility of his actions to nebulous “the patriarchy” is the modern day equivalent of “an imp of Satan tempted me into sin”. It absolves men of agency and responsibility for their actions (or inaction if it’s housework 😉 )

A married woman leaving her husband has more rights and gets more financial support than an unmarried woman. So marriage isn’t misogynist because it provides protection from misogynist husbands.

What’s patriarchy is being convinced marriage is misogynist and as you aren’t like the ‘other girls’, you’d be feminist as an unmarried live in girlfriend when the reality is that sort of living arrangement usually benefits misogynist men.

? But having children was a life goal for my DH and I both. Why would I do all you tell me to do to “effect social change” that would create a society I’d be so miserable living in that I would rather jump off a bridge?

I like living with my DH/a man, we take care of each other and our children jointly. I wouldn’t want to be living with women my whole life span.

If that’s a life that appeals to you- no men, no children, living with women, go for it, but don’t presume to force that on all of us or pretend your choices are the enlighten ones and I’m just a mug who has believed sexist lies.

My STFU was about when you try and impose your choices on other women:

“It’s when you try and impose your choices on other women, tell other women what surname they should choose or tell them their choice is anti feminist or feminist that I will always say, STFU…”

Imposing requires more than simply talking about your own choices.

“But it's not a matter of opinion that naming traditions and titles and the way we use them also impact other people. It's how they work. Nor is is a matter of opinion that the tradition of the woman taking the man's name on marriage is patriarchal.”

Disagree that these are facts.

Naming traditions and titles do not affect the status of women as a class, so have no bearing on feminism.

The Anglo-centric tradition of the woman taking the man’s surname upon marriage is Patrilineal not Patriarchal. These are often confused 🫤 as you have done.

@Whyisegg have you ever considered that women may not want what you've described?

i dont want to live in commune of amazons

Many women, I think, resist feminism because it is an agony to be fully conscious of the brutal misogyny which permeates culture, society, and all personal relationships.'
Andrea Dworkin

I think that's very insightful. Like a good little woman, I married and changed my name- even though I knew the misogyny behind both practices - because I couldn't be bothered to fight it all my life.

I hear many friends complaining about husbands who do very little housework while they work and do housework. What can they do? Leave and do it all themselves anyway, but whilst a lot poorer? Women often don't see feminism as an answer.

'Many women, I think, resist feminism because it is an agony to be fully conscious of the brutal misogyny which permeates culture, society, and all personal relationships.'
Andrea Dworkin

Women are indoctrinated from childhood with sexist ideology and it's very difficult to break away from this belief system - even if women are aware of the lies they are fed, they often have very little choices available to them. It's easier to play along if that means security for themselves and their children. Women with relative privilege (for example in the UK, as opposed to women in Afghanistan) could affect social change by rejecting relationships with men (or at least refusing to live with a man, living alone or with other women for example), seeking financial security, and not having children. Contraception is freely available in most of Europe and the UK. Real change requires personal sacrifice. The fairytale we are sold of a husband and kids as the ultimate life goal is a lie - it's a construct of patriarchy, designed to ensure men are taken care of from cradle to grave.

Regarding the large number of women who are supportive of gender ideology, to the extent that it is mainly women propping it up........I was watching an episode of " Billboard Pete" on you tube yesterday. He is the Canadian guy who goes around with a billboard which states " Children cannot consent to puberty blockers" - in order to stimulate debate and discussion.

It is almost always women who aggressively come up to confront, and I've realised that is because women are brought up to belive in the " truth" of feelings; that feelings are of over-riding importance, and that we must always listen to our own and others feelings, and give them priority or centre stage.

So, if a child "feels they are trans" then one must honour that and listen to them, and even believe in the truth of those feelings; to the extent of veryfying and validating those feelings.

The thing is, feelings are not really an indicator of truth. Feelings are passing and temporal states which are triggered by all manner of thing. Feelings are the person's learned response to the environment. Feelings can be triggered by thoughts and by associations. The thought, the memory, the association triggers a feeling response to some original stimuli.

Feelings re-play themselves throughout our day. We fel sad, we feel uncomfortable, we feel anxious, we feel frightened, we feel elated, we feel joy, we feel anticipation. sometimes we fixate on a feeeling and totally inhabit it, and by inhabiting it we make it more real and vivid. We believe our feeling is a true indicator of the state of the world and our place in it.

But if you stand back from feelings you can watch them play out, and you notice the sort of situations and associations which trigger them. They are real in that you feel them...but they are not a particularly reliable guide to healthy and balanced living - certainly if you always give them centre stage.

I should ask some native speakers actually.
My preference is Ms and between Miss and Mrs then yes I suppose the Mrs for everyone is what comes closest.
I also think Ms as a word was a bad choice as it's difficult to read and pronounce.

It is, but there's a distinction between your opinion on an issue generally and you talking about what has happened to you. There are shitloads of problems that a woman could be utterly unaffected by on a personal level and yet not use this as a way to pronounce on the way in which other women experience them. If you are only saying it's a non-issue for you specifically, and you're as clear about is as you have been in your last two posts, that's fine but it's different to making broader statements.

Agree with you that the titles part in particular is likely to resolve itself with time, as titles themselves become less used. I'd still like not to experience misogyny because of it now though!

@WhatWouldJeevesDo I never even heard of custom of bride choosing the date. By the time weddings entered my mind the idea was that bride and groom agree upon everything together (if groom shows interest at all), but a man still has to propose. Otherwise woman is being a bit desperate, because clearly a bloke always tried to avoid comittment 🙄

I’ve been wondering recently why it is that the convention that the man proposes marriage remains, but the convention that the bride chooses the date has disappeared.
It seems as though women can’t advance in one sphere without a backlash in another.

Isn’t the only feminist choice and your personal preference Mrs?
Do native speakers feel that they are technically’Miss’?

If people ask for my title ( by which they usually mean are you married ( Mrs) or not (Miss) I tend to say " I'm not bothered, whatever you like". I do find it a tedious question which creates the requirement for more effort than I'm prepared to put in.

I don't like 'Ms', and am not keen on 'Mrs' at all ( even though i submit to its use on occasion). Have to say I do prefer 'Miss'.

@TrashedSofa isn't that the point of discussion? that people present their opinion?

im not denying that having to explain your name and title is a sign of sexism or that it is cause by inherent sexism in the system, what I am also saying is that I was never bothered by having to explain it

so based on my own experience I consider it a non-issue that with time will resolve itself

The 'to me' is a new addition, although you're still talking about something you say you haven't experienced wrt misogyny based on use of Ms.

If what you actually mean is that you as an individual haven't experienced any detriment, by all means make that clear. But your problem is that you felt the need to rank the issue as a whole. That inherently includes the experiences of women who like me have experienced sexism on this basis. So that's an additional issue on top of the need to rank being a strawman in the first place.