Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

Yes, this is true. Also, men complain that they 'don't know what women look like' if they wear makeup. Even if they are not dating, or have no interest in dating the women in question.

It's as though they think that they have some sort of entitlement to see all of a women.

Chin hairs are a sign of ageing in most women (as in those tha5 don’t have PCOS). In a similar vein, aging men are expected to remove ear hair and bushy eyebrow hair.

I was thinking of short haircuts as well as shaving and of course clear skin with no makeup to conceal it.

Sorry, totally cross-posted with you.

Not sure if Onion's post was even serious.

I brought up make up. I never said that women "should not be able to choose make up". I said it's sad that so many women feel their faces are inadequate without it, while very few men do.

I know lots and lots of women who don't feel they look good enough without it.

It is sad. I stand by that. Our naked faces are every bit as adequate as men's, in my opinion.

I'm not telling them not to wear it. In my anecdote, it was women telling me to wear it, or at least expressing genuine shock that I wasn't going to

OP's "agenda" being posting in a feminist thread!

Does your husband not love you then? And was it not possible for the children to have your name?

You can do what you want, but don't pretend it's a feminist choice.

You might want to google a thing or two about preference formation. It's entirely possible to have different views about the social value of makeup but it's completely bonkers to assert that any individual's likes or dislikes are what they are just because "they feel good to me." Whether or not they feel good to you is ALWAYS within a context of learned behaviours and shared perceptions unless you trained in economics because that's just the dipshit naive "methodological individualism" inherent in the discipline.

"In my experience, it's usually men who criticise women for wearing makeup, which to me, has always felt very misogynistic. It's as though only masculine interests are acceptable."

I think it's worse than that. It's the idea that women must be beautiful, but naturally beautiful. It's the same as men fancying slim women, but not liking having to deal with a woman being on a diet. It's supposed to be effortless.

More recently too there have been complaints by men about women using makeup to 'catfish' ie to pretend to be something they're not.

I would argue it’s inter-sectionalism of race and class giving certain men more leeway. White, upper class men are under less pressure to conform.

@thedankness I don't think it matters whether you mention sex work or wearing elevated footwear. The point is that you think women should not be doing things they want because you believe these are based on patriarchal values

sure modern shaving is a product of capitalistic greed, but when people were removing their pubes back in medieval times they were unlikely to be doing it for show. it was a personal preference

The senior men in all the companies I have everworked for do not conform to that list of expectations for men. Not in the slightest. The (few) senior women? No way would they be able to dress/present to the same level and not have to deal with it as an issue.

Did your husband not love you and dream of having your name? Why couldn't your children have had your name?

Why do you think it's reasonable to expect women to change and lose and shed their identities, while something so basic as their own name is something men get to have all their lives?

I love that the radical feminists on here believe that women should not be given a right to choose our work, our sex practices, our makeup and even our shoes because men may find those things attractive. so in order for our lives to not be ruled by men we should be denied body autonomy because of...men

I'd get dizzy and throw up if I was to come up with this mental gymnastics routine

There are grooming expectations for men that do not apply to women. Like what? Men are expected to shave their lower face or to groom their facial hair into acceptable moustache/beard styles, but women are expected to remove chin hairs.

I changed my name after marriage because I love my husband and dreamt of having his name, and secondly, because I didn't want to have a different name to my children. Sorry if this doesn't fit in with whatever agenda you have.

I would argue that the parameters for women are stricter and narrower. I've worked in lots of places where the higher-up successful men don't fit these descriptions. Ageism is many times more visible towards women than towards men IME and IMO.

I don't get the hate for makeup. I love makeup. I don't feel like I HAVE to wear it, but generally, when people look good, then they tend to feel good.

When I wear I nice lipstick, it lifts my face in the similar way that wearing a top in a colour that really suits you does.

Is makeup any different to buying a nice top? Or a man working for a six pack at the gym? Or getting a nice haircut?

To me makeup is fun and I enjoy experimenting with my look.

In my experience, it's usually men who criticise women for wearing makeup, which to me, has always felt very misogynistic. It's as though only masculine interests are acceptable. Anything feminine (makeup, dresses, or feminine colours etc) are to be looked down on

If that's the German cannibalism case you're talking about, then yes, you've got the facts about right. I expect it would be the same in most legal systems.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/armin-meiwes

My sil has progressive MS yet voted for Trump. And she will again if she gets the chance. To me this is a woman voting against herself. Nothing to do with makeup.

Sure, sure – although OP hasn’t initiated a discussion of that here. She’s already arrived at her own conclusion and just wants to know why other women who don’t agree hate themselves so much.

I understood that she was raising the slightly more meta question of why women disagree with each other about whether certain cultural norms constitute subjugation, but men do not. The answer may be that there are not many gender norms that are enforced to the detriment of men (that they do the fighting is one). Also the position of women is constantly shifting because the patriarchy is fighting back all the time, so that a norm which is oppressive in one era may be less so in another.

She didn't, that was me. For me, having female companions is not unfeminist, just like I appreciate having female midwives. As I mentioned, I'm not of the pro choice, "inclusive" school of feminism. I'm of the radical, pro-women school, where women help and protect each other to the exclusion of men.

That's why I'd never have wanted a male bridesmaid or male midwife.

I did accept that many on mn would disagree. I'm happy to take my share of the op's thrashing

professional men are under similar pressure to maintain a youthful appearance, although it is by masculine standards. Clean shaven if older, dye hair if greying, fight hair loss if going bald, not get obese, the right clothing, the right shoes, right watch, right accessories, teeth whitening, etc.

More attractive men and women are usually more successful in careers. It’s not just women.

I think the overall pressure is ageism- that men and women are under pressure to not look old and ready to be retired. Our society does worship youth, and the energy and vitality that goes with it.

you're one of them people who walks up to smokers to tell them that smoking is bad for their health, aren't you?

"I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women."

Many gay men do the vanity things.
Basically there's a difference between wanting to attract men and wanting to attract women.

High heels were originally for men. I wouldn't wear them, but I understand why other women want to do certain things to be attractive to men or to fit in.

I shave legs and armpits. I don't claim it's a feminist act, but I'm part of society.