Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

I think makeup makes my skin look worse

You do understand that criticising (by which I mean questioning and examining) the societal standards that tell women that heels are 'good' or 'feminine' is not the same as 'getting angry' or telling other women want to do?

Well said.

Evidently there's nothing more feminist than talking down to women you view as lesser for enjoying things that you don't or having differing opinions 🙄

Funny how a feminism board can produce some of the most ridiculous examples of so-called 'feminists' I've ever come across.

I've been a feminist academic for getting on for two decades. I've never yet come across any brand or school of feminism known as 'choice feminism'.

Feminism has never been about assuring choice. Choice, if anything, has come about as a consequence of far more fundamental battles: some of which were as deadly serious as matters of life and death. This has been some of the most bitterly contested political ground fought over the past century. Reducing that to mere choice seems to me to negate or ignore those issues.

It's easy to take the rights we have now for granted, whilst quickly forgetting the fights, sacrifices and struggles women have been through in order to secure them. 'Feminism' isn't about, for example, choosing what you call yourself, or of arguing the toss in defence of your personal decision. What individuals do or don't do ultimately won't matter much. What is beneficial is to consider (and challenge) the conditions under which these choices are made.

The make-up example is another good point. We don't arrive at these preferences in a vacuum.

Interesting thread, thanks OP.

I have been similarly baffled in the past. These days I just think it's impossible to understand the meaning another person ascribes to an activity without asking them. Then again I think there are also plenty of women not interested in questioning the story they tell themselves about why they wear makeup just to take one of your examples.

Some possible meanings for wearing make-up...

• someone enjoys decorating their face
• someone is a clown
• someone feels forced to wear makeup so as not to be socially shamed for not conforming to aesthetic standards
• someone wants to cover up spots
• someone feels their face is so ugly they have to disguise it
• someone feels that make up makes them more attractive either to potential mates or just pleasant to look at in general or perhaps just for themself (and I completely agree with the previous poster talking about how preferences form in context... An aesthetic choice is never going to arise in a vacuum)

It makes sense that feminism would look at how women and men are differently affected by this. It's a pity when people react as if this is somehow "spoiling fun".

Personally I don't like the feeling of make up on my face and can't be bothered to spend time applying it when there are other activities that seem more beneficial to me. I think I was also lucky to have lots of women in my family who didn't wear make up and to grow up in a time and place less bombarded with images.

I think I broadly agree with what you say. However, I'm not sure the brand of feminism that isn't choice feminism is that different or any less disingenuous.

Again, using myself as an example I can enthusiastically nod along when Mary Harrington says that casual sex is bad for women. This is partly because I believe it has been a better deal for men, but if I'm completely honest it's also because casual sex doesn't appeal now I'm married, and even if it did my ardour would rapidly cool when looking at most of the men in my social circle/ workplace. So casual sex is a threat to me rather than an opportunity- my husband might sleep with another woman, or leave me for one, thereby destroying the life I've built.

If I was a young attractive woman, and despite the threats if definitely carries, increased access to casual sex might be much more of a opportunity than a threat- I like sex for a start, but it has also given young women access to a wider dating pool, thereby increasing their chances of finding the right husband.

This doesn't mean that all actions are feminist because a woman does them, and I don't think I'm necessarily a choice feminist. But as I get older I find feminism as an overarching 'this is what is good for all women at all times' idea less convincing regardless of it's flavour.

I love it that we're now sharing make up and beauty tips

@ImthatBoleyngirl maybe it's all the exercise, factor 50 SPF in the sun and water thats given me good skin then. But I'm still a bit dubious that coating an organ (skin is our largest organ) in chemicals on a regular basis is good for it. Like you said the cheap/affordable stuff isnt great, and thats what most of us start out with on a teenage girl budget. So unless youre exclusively using very expensive high end or Lush makeup that's made from fairly traded organic shea butter and stuff, it's bound to be the UPF of the face.

I will get flamed for it, but here is something I considered some time ago

I believe that some people (not just women) who are bothered by others "beautifying" themselves are bothered due to their own vanity. They don't want to do those things like going to the gym or putting makeup on, but they also want an even playing field - so that when they compare themselves to others they don't feel "less than"

and i genuinely think that's why some women worry so much about other women wearing makeup and some men get their boxers in a twist over bodybuilders. Otherwise , why would they care so much? Why would they have such strong opinions about other how other people look or what they do privately?

I never once felt any type of way about people who are supper fit - I would love to look like them, but Im lazy so I don't. Should I be bothered that they are hotter than me?

"There are foundations containing products that actually benefit your skin."

Yes, I actually think modern makeup is good for us.
I can see how some feminists would object to the EXPECTATION on women to wear makeup, but not the actual wearing of it.

It's quite different to high heels, which are proven to be harmful to feet and the one I see most often, which is women just being very cold in the pursuit of beauty and sexiness.

"If you’re Anglo it is, which is a teeny tiny country in a sea of billions of women."

Taking a husband's name is not confined to English-speaking countries, is it?
It's the norm in France for example (even if not necessarily in official business).
Latin American women sometimes use their husband's after their own...

Pores don't need to breathe. The top layer of the skin is dead. The lower level of the skin gets nourishment from oxygen and nutrients from the blood supply. This is why what you eat and drink is so important for your skin. Some cheap, nasty makeup can clog pores, but most doesn't. There are foundations containing products that actually benefit your skin.

I think you've got it the wrong way around in the order of what came first. Maybe just 'equality' would be fourth wave feminism and being for women's liberation would be 2nd wave?
Someone else would know better than me.

"As said before the two (taking husband surname and being property of husband) are not linked in every culture."

But we are talking about cultures where women DO take their husband's names.

And no, actually I don't always think of anyone not taking her husband's name as a feminist act. Where I live women tend not to, but in 95% of cases only give their husband's names to their children and in some cultures, there was never the tradition of changing names.

out of curiosity - what branch of feminism is simply believing in equal rights and opportunities, as well as body autonomy?

because if getting angry that some women are kinky and wear heels is what we now call feminism then I'm a bad feminist

I didn’t. I suppose to an Anglo that’s a feminist thing, even though when women were owned by their men it was still the case we had our surname, so how is it feminist here? It can’t be? As said before the two (taking husband surname and being property of husband) are not linked in every culture.

Most of what you said has been pushed on women and girls by feminists for the past 20 years

"you are judging women in a multi-cultural society by an anglo lens."

Sorry that I do not know every culture in the world. How would I be expected to be.

I still don't really get your point as you say that women in your country don't usually change their names anyway so why would you do it?

No - are you looking really hard for something to get upset about? My point - and that of any fellow social scientist - was that there is no such thing as an individual preference that isn't influenced by social learning, due to the simple fact that we are social creatures whose likes and dislikes don't simply evolve in isolation from every other human being on the planet. (That obviously includes feminists!) The poster I was responding to claimed to be acting solely on her personal tastes, but I bet when she puts on makeup it won't look like that of a Meiji Era geisha or a woman in a Rubens painting but instead, something arrived at through very here-and now contemporary influences. Call that brainwashing if you like but you'd be making yourself ridiculous.

If you’re Anglo it is, which is a teeny tiny country in a sea of billions of women.

Exactly, your upbringing was not universal, so your impression of makeup being a non feminist choice is informed by your life experience, which is not the same as that of other women.

Not true any more with DNA testing and even birth certificates, and not important either in my opinion as your father is whoever brings you up.
As I've posted it IS also to do with women being considered men's property.

Op I agree with you but you're in an impossible argument because women will just say 'it's their choice' to do whatever you disagree with... and where do you go from there?

Choice feminism has a lot to answer for.

The way women continue to be socialised stinks as well!

"the cultural expectations across the whole place (country, region) isn’t always all woman are socialised to wear make up."

If it's sold in the shops, somebody is wearing it.
For what it's worth my upbringing had pro- and anti-makeup pressures. It was definitely seen as slightly 'tarty', not necessarily what 'good' girls did, yet there was also an understanding that most women do wear it.