Page 22 | Why are so many women hellbent on acting against their own interest?

thedankness · 2023-12-22T15:39:14+00:00

From TWAW, pro "sex-work", "kinky sex" and porn, plastic surgery, accepting low standards in relationships with men, being anti-abortion to more trivial things such as wearing heels, and yes, shaving, and so much more, so many women will defend these things to the hilt. They refuse/are unable to see how these things are bad for themselves and/or women generally, even after presented with arguments. Obviously some people will disagree with points made in an argument, but I just don't see men subjugating themselves en masse like I do women. I feel sad. Why can't we as women just love ourselves and look out for ourselves? I feel like we are groomed into self-hate. Is the notion of female self-acceptance and worth truly so radical that a significant number can't even fathom it as a possibility for themselves? Why is it so common for women to act against their interest? And can or should we do anything about it? This is a bit poorly-worded, have thoughts but am interested to hear others' opinions.

ArabellaScott · 22/12/2023 19:34

i would also argue that being ugly should not be equated with being "lesser than" and its the oversubscription of value to our appearance that is the key issue

Well, okay, but the bigger principle here is that there is no such thing as 'ugly'.

Original poster

thedankness · 22/12/2023 19:33

ScholesPanda · 22/12/2023 18:39

I think I broadly agree with what you say. However, I'm not sure the brand of feminism that isn't choice feminism is that different or any less disingenuous.

Again, using myself as an example I can enthusiastically nod along when Mary Harrington says that casual sex is bad for women. This is partly because I believe it has been a better deal for men, but if I'm completely honest it's also because casual sex doesn't appeal now I'm married, and even if it did my ardour would rapidly cool when looking at most of the men in my social circle/ workplace. So casual sex is a threat to me rather than an opportunity- my husband might sleep with another woman, or leave me for one, thereby destroying the life I've built.

If I was a young attractive woman, and despite the threats if definitely carries, increased access to casual sex might be much more of a opportunity than a threat- I like sex for a start, but it has also given young women access to a wider dating pool, thereby increasing their chances of finding the right husband.

This doesn't mean that all actions are feminist because a woman does them, and I don't think I'm necessarily a choice feminist. But as I get older I find feminism as an overarching 'this is what is good for all women at all times' idea less convincing regardless of it's flavour.

Interesting post, I guess I disagree in that if you have intellectual integrity you could come to the conclusion something is feminist even if you decide go ahead and ignore it, and you can try to acknowledge your biases. Some issues are way more nuanced than others though which makes 'this is what is good for all women at all times' correct. The examples I gave in the OP I feel are less nuanced compared to others.

I think the thing I can't get over is that women are being strangled by men and claiming they enjoy it. The fact they can't imagine how it can go wrong is just beyond me.

This was the inspiration for the thread.

OP posts:

PaintedEgg · 22/12/2023 19:31

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 19:26

"your partner may care, maybe you mum if she's a bit weird like that...but others? they will either thing you're pretty or not, it won't affect their daily life"

How you look affects how you're treated unfortunately.
My DM is not like that, but as far as a partner or potential partner - that's a very important aspect in many women's lives.

you chose what is important in your life, and whether you will care about how you are perceived

yes, there is a halo effect, but this applies to both men and women. you're a judge of how much you think it affects you and how much you care that it does

I've had a partner who hated my fashion choices - but whether I cared was up to me

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 19:26

"your partner may care, maybe you mum if she's a bit weird like that...but others? they will either thing you're pretty or not, it won't affect their daily life"

How you look affects how you're treated unfortunately.
My DM is not like that, but as far as a partner or potential partner - that's a very important aspect in many women's lives.

ValerieMoore · 22/12/2023 19:25

Stellium · 22/12/2023 19:22

One thing that I find interesting is how you sometimes hear of parents who are vehemently against their sons wearing a dress or painting their nails or having long hair, but are fine with their daughters wearing "boy" clothes and being a tomboy. As if anything deemed feminine is lesser than that we seem masculine. Feels like a lot of feminists do actually agree with this, that to be masculine is the ideal.

I get the feeling that most women. want us to be like men

PaintedEgg · 22/12/2023 19:25

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 19:19

" I don't think anyone but us cares about how old or good we look"

Well that's obviousy not true!

your partner may care, maybe you mum if she's a bit weird like that...but others? they will either thing you're pretty or not, it won't affect their daily life

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 19:24

"We're all individuals, with OUR OWN minds, and its fucking insulting to be patronised, insinuating don't know what we want and have been groomed by the patriarchy (give me strength)"

Well, no. As Arabella said, we are all part of a society.
We are all influenced by our surroundings.

PaintedEgg · 22/12/2023 19:23

@ArabellaScott in which case the problem is whether or not these women do actually feel like they need to do it and would leaving the house without makeup would genuinely affect their self-esteem, while in reality world is filled with less then perfect people

i would also argue that being ugly should not be equated with being "lesser than" and its the oversubscription of value to our appearance that is the key issue

finally - if someone feels bad about themselves because they think they're ugly then other people people not wearing makeup is not going to help as there always be people who were just born beautiful

EmmaEmerald · 22/12/2023 19:23

OP I get it, though my list would be different.

Worth remembering that men did wear high heels and make up, and seriously uncomfortable clothes, in days gone by.

that was the same social pressure that led me to make up in my 40s. I just looked so different to my peers in meetings etc.

FrenchToastLover · 22/12/2023 19:22

@PaintedEgg I think this is very accurate tbh

OPs post is like something I would have written a decade ago. It took me a while to recognise that the women I was criticising were happy and empowered in there decisions and that I was simply envious from my own insecurities.

Stellium · 22/12/2023 19:22

One thing that I find interesting is how you sometimes hear of parents who are vehemently against their sons wearing a dress or painting their nails or having long hair, but are fine with their daughters wearing "boy" clothes and being a tomboy. As if anything deemed feminine is lesser than that we seem masculine. Feels like a lot of feminists do actually agree with this, that to be masculine is the ideal.

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 19:19

" I don't think anyone but us cares about how old or good we look"

Well that's obviousy not true!

ArabellaScott · 22/12/2023 19:19

Everyone is affected by society, we live in society.

It's not a 'bad' thing to be affected by societal ideals.

There is no need to feel insulted or patronised by women discussing abstract ideas. None at all.

ScremeEggs · 22/12/2023 19:17

many women hold differing opinions to you, not because they are all lower down on the hierarchy of enlightenment and emancipation, but because they have considered the issues at hand and have arrived at a different conclusion.”

Well said!
We're all individuals, with OUR OWN minds, and its fucking insulting to be patronised, insinuating don't know what we want and have been groomed by the patriarchy (give me strength)
I never wear make up, or heels, but if others like that then that's their choice.

ArabellaScott · 22/12/2023 19:17

PaintedEgg · 22/12/2023 19:13

the thread literally talks about things we may do for vanity as harmful

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Right. Well, the feminist argument for that would usually be the suggestion that any woman needs to augment or alter her appearance to look 'better' is a fallacy. Beauty ideals are qualitative, subjective ideas imposed on society. That the issue is the judgement of a woman as 'better' or 'lesser' or 'ugly' or 'beautiful' is the problem.

So it is harmful to women to feel they have to or should or will be better off if they measure up to arbitary standards.

There is no 'ideal'. There is no 'right' way to look.

MarkWithaC · 22/12/2023 19:17

GrumpyPanda · 22/12/2023 18:06

No - are you looking really hard for something to get upset about? My point - and that of any fellow social scientist - was that there is no such thing as an individual preference that isn't influenced by social learning, due to the simple fact that we are social creatures whose likes and dislikes don't simply evolve in isolation from every other human being on the planet. (That obviously includes feminists!) The poster I was responding to claimed to be acting solely on her personal tastes, but I bet when she puts on makeup it won't look like that of a Meiji Era geisha or a woman in a Rubens painting but instead, something arrived at through very here-and now contemporary influences. Call that brainwashing if you like but you'd be making yourself ridiculous.

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Absolutely this.
It is quite saddening that people are responding to this mildly expressed and well-thought-out post with defensiveness and hostility (words like 'brainwashing' and 'barbaric' are being used).
It's really hard to have a meaningful and measured conversation about this stuff. Which I think indicates just how engrained social norms and pressures are.

PaintedEgg · 22/12/2023 19:13

ArabellaScott · 22/12/2023 19:11

But again, you're projecting/assuming intentions that just aren't there. This seems to be defensiveness. Why describe it as an 'assault'? It's not personal. Nobody on here can see each other.

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the thread literally talks about things we may do for vanity as harmful

Stellium · 22/12/2023 19:13

Some women don't care about what is better for women as a while or what is harmful to them as a group etc.

It's like... The same way you can present however many arguments about why eating meat is worse for you and the planet and animals etc, if someone wants to eat meat because they like it then some are just selfish, me included.

Similarly, you can present irrefutable proof that shaving is harmful to women, but if I want to shave and like being shaven, why wouldn't I?

PaintedEgg · 22/12/2023 19:12

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 19:07

I would say that's definitely true about plastic surgery and to a lesser extent tweakments. If many 50 year olds start to look smooth and shiny, those people who don't do anything to their face will look older in comparison. It's a sort of unfair competition, but then life itself is unfair.

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it is only a competition if you make it a competition - I don't think anyone but us cares about how old or good we look

bottom line is, the worst case scenario is that others will think I'm ugly if I don't put make-up on or dress "nicely". It's up to me how bothered I am by being ugly to some guy (or more likely - a woman) on street

ArabellaScott · 22/12/2023 19:11

PaintedEgg · 22/12/2023 19:02

well, I gave this thread a benefit of a doubt of assuming that all women are not mind-controlled idiots and that they know they like heels because of association with femininity (or because legs looks more shapely in them).

Personally I don't understand this assault on vanity. it is also a bit sad we, as a society, are yet to grow out of the "im not like the other girls, pink is bad" mentality

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But again, you're projecting/assuming intentions that just aren't there. This seems to be defensiveness. Why describe it as an 'assault'? It's not personal. Nobody on here can see each other.

Psychoticbreak · 22/12/2023 19:10

BabaBarrio · 22/12/2023 17:48

So women who like makeup are just brainwashed and not enlightened? They can’t possibly truly like it of their own choice?

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Exactly. Barbaric thoughts.

minicheddars87 · 22/12/2023 19:07

Yes OP we all know you're very special and not like the other girls. Well done. 👏🏻

Gwenhwyfar · 22/12/2023 19:07

PaintedEgg · 22/12/2023 18:23

I will get flamed for it, but here is something I considered some time ago

I believe that some people (not just women) who are bothered by others "beautifying" themselves are bothered due to their own vanity. They don't want to do those things like going to the gym or putting makeup on, but they also want an even playing field - so that when they compare themselves to others they don't feel "less than"

and i genuinely think that's why some women worry so much about other women wearing makeup and some men get their boxers in a twist over bodybuilders. Otherwise , why would they care so much? Why would they have such strong opinions about other how other people look or what they do privately?

I never once felt any type of way about people who are supper fit - I would love to look like them, but Im lazy so I don't. Should I be bothered that they are hotter than me?

I would say that's definitely true about plastic surgery and to a lesser extent tweakments. If many 50 year olds start to look smooth and shiny, those people who don't do anything to their face will look older in comparison. It's a sort of unfair competition, but then life itself is unfair.

PaintedEgg · 22/12/2023 19:02

ArabellaScott · 22/12/2023 18:54

You do understand that criticising (by which I mean questioning and examining) the societal standards that tell women that heels are 'good' or 'feminine' is not the same as 'getting angry' or telling other women want to do?

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well, I gave this thread a benefit of a doubt of assuming that all women are not mind-controlled idiots and that they know they like heels because of association with femininity (or because legs looks more shapely in them).

Personally I don't understand this assault on vanity. it is also a bit sad we, as a society, are yet to grow out of the "im not like the other girls, pink is bad" mentality

determinedtomakethiswork · 22/12/2023 19:01

I think the thing I can't get over is that women are being strangled by men and claiming they enjoy it. The fact they can't imagine how it can go wrong is just beyond me.